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Ye ole d4 no spark
7 years 7 months ago #166644
by neil
Cheers,
Neil
Pittsford, NY
Replied by neil on topic Ye ole d4 no spark
Hi Doug,
need to go back to first principles, and start from the beginning, testing for the simple case, and then adding back in "mag" components until you find the fault.
The spark will fire when the points open on the automotive coil. You can test your "test" setup by:
- connect spark plug to high tension wire from coil and ground spark plug body to battery negative
- ground auto coil to battery negative
- connect wire from battery positive to coil positive
- #4 connect wire from coil negative to ground then disconnect it - the spark will jump when you disconnect it
This is the simplest case you can test and doesn't involve any magneto components. You need to verify that your test setup itself is not faulty.
If that all works, then you're ready to test your points. With all of the steps above in place, disconnect condensor from points, and instead of #4, connect wire from coil negative to insulated side of points with points open, then disconnect the wire just like in #4 above. If the spark jumps, then your points insulation has broken down. This means the points are never "opening".
If the spark does not jump, then close points, connect wire to insulated side of points, then open points and spark should jump. If it does not, then your points are not continuous and you need to file them some more.
If the spark does jump, then reconnect the condensor and retest the points opening. If the spark doesn't jump, then replace your condensor.
Once you get past all that, then it's time to dispense with the auto coil test setup and hook the points back up to the magneto and retest the mag.
Or.... the faster test is, if you have a multimeter, test that the insulated side of your points are truly insulated (disconnect the points) - if they're not, replace them. Then disconnect the condensor just to see if you can get a spark.
(Any incorrect information in the above will be corrected shortly....)
Update your location in your profile up there at the top of the page under "My Profile".
need to go back to first principles, and start from the beginning, testing for the simple case, and then adding back in "mag" components until you find the fault.
The spark will fire when the points open on the automotive coil. You can test your "test" setup by:
- connect spark plug to high tension wire from coil and ground spark plug body to battery negative
- ground auto coil to battery negative
- connect wire from battery positive to coil positive
- #4 connect wire from coil negative to ground then disconnect it - the spark will jump when you disconnect it
This is the simplest case you can test and doesn't involve any magneto components. You need to verify that your test setup itself is not faulty.
If that all works, then you're ready to test your points. With all of the steps above in place, disconnect condensor from points, and instead of #4, connect wire from coil negative to insulated side of points with points open, then disconnect the wire just like in #4 above. If the spark jumps, then your points insulation has broken down. This means the points are never "opening".
If the spark does not jump, then close points, connect wire to insulated side of points, then open points and spark should jump. If it does not, then your points are not continuous and you need to file them some more.
If the spark does jump, then reconnect the condensor and retest the points opening. If the spark doesn't jump, then replace your condensor.
Once you get past all that, then it's time to dispense with the auto coil test setup and hook the points back up to the magneto and retest the mag.
Or.... the faster test is, if you have a multimeter, test that the insulated side of your points are truly insulated (disconnect the points) - if they're not, replace them. Then disconnect the condensor just to see if you can get a spark.
(Any incorrect information in the above will be corrected shortly....)
Update your location in your profile up there at the top of the page under "My Profile".
Cheers,
Neil
Pittsford, NY
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7 years 7 months ago #166654
by cojhl2
9U(2), 5J, IHC544, Ford860
Replied by cojhl2 on topic One Thread per subject, fill out your signature Please
More than one thread re the same subject just takes up time from those who try to assist. Also it is important to have your location filled out as there may be help close to you.
9U(2), 5J, IHC544, Ford860
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7 years 7 months ago #166702
by drujinin
Replied by drujinin on topic Ye ole d4 no spark
Once you introduce an auto coil, it no longer matters if the original system was a positive or negative ground.
Draw it up on paper and post a scan of what you think you have done.
I've worked on ALL types of ignition systems in the past 45 years and very rarely have I ever seen what you are attempting to do be successful, not saying it won't work, just a few systems does it seem to work on.
Neil is close to being right.
A Delco coil needs the sparkplug grounding to its case not battery negative.
Disclaimer: Haven't referred to my DELCO manual, just going by memory!
Draw it up on paper and post a scan of what you think you have done.
I've worked on ALL types of ignition systems in the past 45 years and very rarely have I ever seen what you are attempting to do be successful, not saying it won't work, just a few systems does it seem to work on.
Neil is close to being right.
A Delco coil needs the sparkplug grounding to its case not battery negative.
Disclaimer: Haven't referred to my DELCO manual, just going by memory!
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- mcbitchman
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7 years 7 months ago #166807
by mcbitchman
OK,,,, here are a couple of pics of the coil... I found what may have been a place where the ground wire was attached... not sure....the number on the coil body are H28-030 which is molded into the side of the unit and on the other side is what looks to be numbers in yellow paint.... not sure... can one solder a wire onto the area that looks like solder ???? thanks Doug
by the way,,, sorry about the multiple posts in more than one section... new here and haven't figured out the navigation yet... certainly don't want to waste anybodys time or space for other posts.... Thanks Again for all the help....
Replied by mcbitchman on topic coil pictures
This is the more common version with two wire.
OK,,,, here are a couple of pics of the coil... I found what may have been a place where the ground wire was attached... not sure....the number on the coil body are H28-030 which is molded into the side of the unit and on the other side is what looks to be numbers in yellow paint.... not sure... can one solder a wire onto the area that looks like solder ???? thanks Doug
by the way,,, sorry about the multiple posts in more than one section... new here and haven't figured out the navigation yet... certainly don't want to waste anybodys time or space for other posts.... Thanks Again for all the help....
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7 years 7 months ago #166808
by mcbitchman
I don't have a scanner but ... I took the stock coil out of the mag... along with the condenser. then I bought a new GM type condenser. Using a coil known to be good I attached a twelve volt battery positive side to the coil bat side... then attached a wire from the dist side to the points in the mag via a hole drilled in the cap. then ran a wire from the pts to the condenser which I attached to the cat firewall. then ran a wire from the neg side of battery to the cat firewall. then ran a sold core plug wire from the tab on the cap that would normally touch the tab on the stock coil via a solder joint. thru another hole drilled in the cap I ran the plug wire to the auto coil output at the top of the auto coil... then attached plugs to the plug wires that are attached to the cap at their normal attachment holes.... turned the flywheel via a drill ,,, no spark... hmmmm I did eliminate the kill wire from the mag to the mag switch... I have used a test light to verify that the pts were closing and opening and having continuity,, they appeared to be working ... by the light coming on and off.... I tested continuity from the stock plug wire hole on the cap to the coil wire I soldered to the cap and it was good.... I did not ground the coil body to the cat just layed it on the floor of the cat ,,, guess I should have grounded it to the battery ????
Replied by mcbitchman on topic test
Once you introduce an auto coil, it no longer matters if the original system was a positive or negative ground.
Draw it up on paper and post a scan of what you think you have done.
I've worked on ALL types of ignition systems in the past 45 years and very rarely have I ever seen what you are attempting to do be successful, not saying it won't work, just a few systems does it seem to work on.
Neil is close to being right.
A Delco coil needs the sparkplug grounding to its case not battery negative.
Disclaimer: Haven't referred to my DELCO manual, just going by memory!
I don't have a scanner but ... I took the stock coil out of the mag... along with the condenser. then I bought a new GM type condenser. Using a coil known to be good I attached a twelve volt battery positive side to the coil bat side... then attached a wire from the dist side to the points in the mag via a hole drilled in the cap. then ran a wire from the pts to the condenser which I attached to the cat firewall. then ran a wire from the neg side of battery to the cat firewall. then ran a sold core plug wire from the tab on the cap that would normally touch the tab on the stock coil via a solder joint. thru another hole drilled in the cap I ran the plug wire to the auto coil output at the top of the auto coil... then attached plugs to the plug wires that are attached to the cap at their normal attachment holes.... turned the flywheel via a drill ,,, no spark... hmmmm I did eliminate the kill wire from the mag to the mag switch... I have used a test light to verify that the pts were closing and opening and having continuity,, they appeared to be working ... by the light coming on and off.... I tested continuity from the stock plug wire hole on the cap to the coil wire I soldered to the cap and it was good.... I did not ground the coil body to the cat just layed it on the floor of the cat ,,, guess I should have grounded it to the battery ????
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7 years 7 months ago #166809
by mcbitchman
OK I will try the tests you described and let you know how it turns out... Thank YOU Doug
Replied by mcbitchman on topic ttest
Hi Doug,
need to go back to first principles, and start from the beginning, testing for the simple case, and then adding back in "mag" components until you find the fault.
The spark will fire when the points open on the automotive coil. You can test your "test" setup by:
- connect spark plug to high tension wire from coil and ground spark plug body to battery negative
- ground auto coil to battery negative
- connect wire from battery positive to coil positive
- #4 connect wire from coil negative to ground then disconnect it - the spark will jump when you disconnect it
This is the simplest case you can test and doesn't involve any magneto components. You need to verify that your test setup itself is not faulty.
If that all works, then you're ready to test your points. With all of the steps above in place, disconnect condensor from points, and instead of #4, connect wire from coil negative to insulated side of points with points open, then disconnect the wire just like in #4 above. If the spark jumps, then your points insulation has broken down. This means the points are never "opening".
If the spark does not jump, then close points, connect wire to insulated side of points, then open points and spark should jump. If it does not, then your points are not continuous and you need to file them some more.
If the spark does jump, then reconnect the condensor and retest the points opening. If the spark doesn't jump, then replace your condensor.
Once you get past all that, then it's time to dispense with the auto coil test setup and hook the points back up to the magneto and retest the mag.
Or.... the faster test is, if you have a multimeter, test that the insulated side of your points are truly insulated (disconnect the points) - if they're not, replace them. Then disconnect the condensor just to see if you can get a spark.
(Any incorrect information in the above will be corrected shortly....)
Update your location in your profile up there at the top of the page under "My Profile".
OK I will try the tests you described and let you know how it turns out... Thank YOU Doug
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7 years 7 months ago #166810
by Old Magnet
Replied by Old Magnet on topic Ye ole d4 no spark
Coil should look like this......as shown in the link I provided. Looks like you are missing the bottom tab or wire.
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7 years 7 months ago #166811
by mcbitchman
YES it does look like that.... you'll notice on the pics I posted of my coil on the bottom there seems to be a solder connection that I dug up by scraping some of the rubbery type material away.... do you think this is the place where the ground wire was attached
Replied by mcbitchman on topic one wire two wire
Coil should look like this......as shown in the link I provided. Looks like you are missing the bottom tab or wire.
YES it does look like that.... you'll notice on the pics I posted of my coil on the bottom there seems to be a solder connection that I dug up by scraping some of the rubbery type material away.... do you think this is the place where the ground wire was attached
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7 years 7 months ago #166815
by Old Magnet
Yes, I would say so. Try probing the solder spot and the small tab that goes to the spark plugs. That is where you should get the 6,000 ohm approx. reading. If no reading the connection is either bad or the coil is open. A high reading could also indicate a poor connection. Take a reading and tell us what you get.
Replied by Old Magnet on topic Ye ole d4 no spark
YES it does look like that.... you'll notice on the pics I posted of my coil on the bottom there seems to be a solder connection that I dug up by scraping some of the rubbery type material away.... do you think this is the place where the ground wire was attached
Yes, I would say so. Try probing the solder spot and the small tab that goes to the spark plugs. That is where you should get the 6,000 ohm approx. reading. If no reading the connection is either bad or the coil is open. A high reading could also indicate a poor connection. Take a reading and tell us what you get.
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