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Two seperate questions

Two seperate questions

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jumbo
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I have two questions for 212 grader owners or anyone else smarter than me:

I am fairly hazy on hydraulics to begin with... I finished installing a torque generator for power steering on the grader, the pump I am using displaces .97 cu.in / revolution. The pump is capable of 2000 PSI. It is a gear pump, CCW in direction to match the power control shaft. The power control shaft has a 4” pulley and the pump has a 2” pulley I cannot get pressure above something like 30 psi (the gauge just bounces off of zero.) the supply line is ½” and the pressure line is 3/8”. Any idea what I am doing wrong?

Question two; when I fired everything up today to check my work, I discovered a pinhole leak in my fuel tank. Darn! To remove the fuel tank for repair, I seem to remember somewhere that the cab needs to be removed. I cannot find it in the threads even though I am sure it is there. Am I correct? Is there any other good way to repair a fuel tank other than removing it? Right now I am leaking a pint every 6 hours or so, just a good steady drip.

All this when I was getting geared up to to move on to drive tires and wheels….
I'm not afraid of hard work; I can lay down beside it anytime and take a nap.
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Wed, Nov 15, 2017 10:42 AM
oldbeek
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Is that output pressure being read directly at pump output or hooked up to the steering unit? Use a gauge with a dump valve going back to the tank to ck only the pump. What is the rpm rating of the pump. The second question,, Can you see the area of the leak through the fill pipe? If so use sloshing compound that is used for motorcycle tanks. If not, one time I fixed a tank by creating a vacuum and sucking an anaerobic sealer up into the hole. Of coarse the tank has to be cleaned first. I cleaned my 12 tank, first by flushing with hot water, then with thinner/acetone.
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Wed, Nov 15, 2017 11:07 AM
jumbo
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Reply to oldbeek:
Is that output pressure being read directly at pump output or hooked up to the steering unit? Use a gauge with a dump valve going back to the tank to ck only the pump. What is the rpm rating of the pump. The second question,, Can you see the area of the leak through the fill pipe? If so use sloshing compound that is used for motorcycle tanks. If not, one time I fixed a tank by creating a vacuum and sucking an anaerobic sealer up into the hole. Of coarse the tank has to be cleaned first. I cleaned my 12 tank, first by flushing with hot water, then with thinner/acetone.


The gauge is on the pump side of the relief valve about 3' of hose off the pump nothing between the pump and the gauge. (I have a second gauge on the downstream side of the relief valve also, that one doesn't even budge.) The pump is rated at 2000 rpm, 3600 rpm max. rated at 7.81 gpm and 14.06 gpm max. I can see oil cycling back into the reservoir.

The leak is on the opposite end from the fill, I cannot see it at all from inside. Did you do all this with the tank still under the seat? Or did you remove the tank and work on it free from the grader?
I'm not afraid of hard work; I can lay down beside it anytime and take a nap.
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Wed, Nov 15, 2017 11:40 AM
Deas Plant.
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Reply to jumbo:


The gauge is on the pump side of the relief valve about 3' of hose off the pump nothing between the pump and the gauge. (I have a second gauge on the downstream side of the relief valve also, that one doesn't even budge.) The pump is rated at 2000 rpm, 3600 rpm max. rated at 7.81 gpm and 14.06 gpm max. I can see oil cycling back into the reservoir.

The leak is on the opposite end from the fill, I cannot see it at all from inside. Did you do all this with the tank still under the seat? Or did you remove the tank and work on it free from the grader?
Hi, Jumbo.
Could it be that your pressure relief valve is faulty and allowing bypass all the time?

I have used a product called 'Knead-it' with good results on leaks in diesel fuel tanks. Itza 2-part epoxy style compound with the 2 parts in different colours in the one stick - if you can access the leak, clean off all around it, break of a piece of Knead-it that you think will be big enough to cover the leak, knead it until it is uniform in colour all the way through and press over the hole inna sorta rivet-head shape - sets in about an hour but best left overnight. A dry surface is recommended.

BTW, I have both arc and oxy welded diesel fuel tanks on quite a few occasions - not recommended and maybe one day, one of them will 'bite' me. I also once oxy welded a car gasoline tank by running the car exhaust into it via a length of bicycle tube for about 10 minutes prior to welding and during the welding process - again, NOT recommended but,
when you're stuck out beyond Thebackabuggery, you do what you gotta do to get home.

Just my 0.02.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Wed, Nov 15, 2017 12:00 PM
jumbo
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Reply to Deas Plant.:
Hi, Jumbo.
Could it be that your pressure relief valve is faulty and allowing bypass all the time?

I have used a product called 'Knead-it' with good results on leaks in diesel fuel tanks. Itza 2-part epoxy style compound with the 2 parts in different colours in the one stick - if you can access the leak, clean off all around it, break of a piece of Knead-it that you think will be big enough to cover the leak, knead it until it is uniform in colour all the way through and press over the hole inna sorta rivet-head shape - sets in about an hour but best left overnight. A dry surface is recommended.

BTW, I have both arc and oxy welded diesel fuel tanks on quite a few occasions - not recommended and maybe one day, one of them will 'bite' me. I also once oxy welded a car gasoline tank by running the car exhaust into it via a length of bicycle tube for about 10 minutes prior to welding and during the welding process - again, NOT recommended but,
when you're stuck out beyond Thebackabuggery, you do what you gotta do to get home.

Just my 0.02.
[quote="Deas Plant."]Hi, Jumbo.
Could it be that your pressure relief valve is faulty and allowing bypass all the time?

I have used a product called 'Knead-it' with good results on leaks in diesel fuel tanks. Itza 2-part epoxy style compound with the 2 parts in different colours in the one stick - if you can access the leak, clean off all around it, break of a piece of Knead-it that you think will be big enough to cover the leak, knead it until it is uniform in colour all the way through and press over the hole inna sorta rivet-head shape. A dry surface is recommended.

Just my 0.02.[/quote]

I think the relieve valve is OK, prior to this go around, I had screwed the relief valve down tight cutting off the bypass to see if I could get pressure to the torque generator. I had stalled the pump enough to burn the belt on the drive. That is when I installed the two gauges to see just what I was doing if anything….

I like the idea of Knead-it I just have to find it here in the States.
I'm not afraid of hard work; I can lay down beside it anytime and take a nap.
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Wed, Nov 15, 2017 12:14 PM
Old Magnet
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Reply to jumbo:
[quote="Deas Plant."]Hi, Jumbo.
Could it be that your pressure relief valve is faulty and allowing bypass all the time?

I have used a product called 'Knead-it' with good results on leaks in diesel fuel tanks. Itza 2-part epoxy style compound with the 2 parts in different colours in the one stick - if you can access the leak, clean off all around it, break of a piece of Knead-it that you think will be big enough to cover the leak, knead it until it is uniform in colour all the way through and press over the hole inna sorta rivet-head shape. A dry surface is recommended.

Just my 0.02.[/quote]

I think the relieve valve is OK, prior to this go around, I had screwed the relief valve down tight cutting off the bypass to see if I could get pressure to the torque generator. I had stalled the pump enough to burn the belt on the drive. That is when I installed the two gauges to see just what I was doing if anything….

I like the idea of Knead-it I just have to find it here in the States.
Just looking at some numbers...
Power control drive shaft runs at engine rpm = 1,800 full load engine rpm
Pulley ratio 4" drive, 2" driven = 2:1 = 3,600 rpm = maximum pump flow rating of 14 gpm
Suction hose not to exceed 4 ft/sec requires 1.0" ID
Return hose not to exceed 10 ft/sec requires 3/4" ID
Supply hose not to exceed 15 ft/sec requires 1/2" ID

Why are you running 14 gpm capacity?
The #12 Grader hydraulic steering utilizes 7.5 gpm @ 1000 psi @ 1800 rpm.

A sketch of your configuration would help.
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Wed, Nov 15, 2017 2:16 PM
tctractors
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Just looking at some numbers...
Power control drive shaft runs at engine rpm = 1,800 full load engine rpm
Pulley ratio 4" drive, 2" driven = 2:1 = 3,600 rpm = maximum pump flow rating of 14 gpm
Suction hose not to exceed 4 ft/sec requires 1.0" ID
Return hose not to exceed 10 ft/sec requires 3/4" ID
Supply hose not to exceed 15 ft/sec requires 1/2" ID

Why are you running 14 gpm capacity?
The #12 Grader hydraulic steering utilizes 7.5 gpm @ 1000 psi @ 1800 rpm.

A sketch of your configuration would help.
I would re-check your rotation on the pump as a first point? the simple test is with a flow meter with a load tap. tctractors
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Wed, Nov 15, 2017 2:27 PM
Deas Plant.
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Reply to tctractors:
I would re-check your rotation on the pump as a first point? the simple test is with a flow meter with a load tap. tctractors
Hi, Jumbo.
tctractors may well have a point there about checking 'row-tayshun'. Quote: "CCW in direction to match the power control shaft."

But that depends on whether you are looking at it from the radiator/fan end or from in front of the cab. Looking at it from the radiator/fan end - from the rear of the machine - the engine rotates clockwise. How-wevver, if you look at it from in front of the cab looking toward the back of the grader, the 'row-tayshun' would be your 'CCW'. Then it would also depend on which way you have your gear pump facing, pulley to the front or pulley to the rear.

Does any of that makes sense?

It may be time for some research. You may have the 'suck side' connected to where the pump wants to 'blow' with its current 'row-tayshun'..

Just my 0.02.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Wed, Nov 15, 2017 4:42 PM
ccjersey
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Only way you build up pressure is for the torque generator unit to block the flow through it to return and direct it to twist the shaft. Then the ultimate pressure depends on how hard it is to turn the shaft.

If you can block the flow out of the pump and build up pressure, the pump must be good. Either a plumbing problem or a defective torque generator valve/motor unit.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Wed, Nov 15, 2017 7:31 PM
old-iron-habit
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Reply to ccjersey:
Only way you build up pressure is for the torque generator unit to block the flow through it to return and direct it to twist the shaft. Then the ultimate pressure depends on how hard it is to turn the shaft.

If you can block the flow out of the pump and build up pressure, the pump must be good. Either a plumbing problem or a defective torque generator valve/motor unit.
Are you turning the wheel when you check pressure. If the steering valve is in neutral (not trying to turn) the only pressure on the pump is what it takes to push the oil thru a open circuit. Much like a heating or cooling system in a building. When you engage the valve by turning the steering wheel the hyd pressure should go up the amount of pressure it takes to turn or bypass, whichever is lower.
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Thu, Nov 16, 2017 12:15 AM
Deas Plant.
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Reply to old-iron-habit:
Are you turning the wheel when you check pressure. If the steering valve is in neutral (not trying to turn) the only pressure on the pump is what it takes to push the oil thru a open circuit. Much like a heating or cooling system in a building. When you engage the valve by turning the steering wheel the hyd pressure should go up the amount of pressure it takes to turn or bypass, whichever is lower.
Hi, Jumbo.
If it helps any, that Knead-It product is labelled as Selley's Autofix Knead-It here in DowNunda. Here is a link to a Youtube video about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s-GRPWEhhU

Just my 0.02. Hope it helps.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Fri, Nov 17, 2017 10:46 AM
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