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RD4 injector problems

RD4 injector problems

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mike in ca
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My dad and I are finally starting to work on my late grandfathers 4G RD4. They used to use it to pull a case '6 disk and IHC 4 bottom disk plow. It was parked in 1975 because it was having injector problems. In 1980 my dad and my late uncle took the injector pump off and took it down to the local cat dealer to have it tested but my great aunt did not want to spend the money to have it tested so dad put the pump back on and there it sat. In 1997 my dad decided to move it to my grandfathers ranch so they pull started it with an IH 856, they had to pull it 1/4 mile and it started so they drove it to the ranch. We haven't been able to start it since, we have narrowed the problem down the the #4 injector. Dad says the # 4 injector will not pump up. I have tinkered with it some and was able to get the pony motor started but only runs for a minute and then quits. I know its a carb problem but I cant figure out what. My question is how hard is it going to be to fix the injector? Would it be just a matter of taking the injector apart and cleaning it?

Thanks in advance
Mike in ca
Mike

RD4 4G2183
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Sat, Nov 24, 2012 10:42 AM
Old Magnet
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Did you remove the side cover on the injection pump and check to see if the pump lifter is traveling up and down? Also check that the pump yoke is not broken.
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Mon, Nov 26, 2012 2:57 AM
ccjersey
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One injector isn't going to prevent one from running. Might not run with any power, but it should run.

Have you tried it with starting fluid?

It's pretty easy to do a rough check on the injectors. The operator's manual has the proceedure, but in a nutshell, you can take the injector lines loose and remove the injectors from the engine. Replace them on the lines with the nozzle pointing up instead of down into the engine and then using the starting motor to spin the main engine, open the throttle. You can watch the spray pattern (or lack of a spray pattern) and compare them. A piece of dark material held behind the injector can make it easier to see the spray, but BE CAREFUL not to get fuel injected under your skin. It is likely to cause gangrene and result in severe damage if not treated properly immediately. Any problems, don't meddle with the injector adjustment unless you know what you're doing and have the tooling. Bill will likely be along soon, but here's a post he put up back in October.

"Gentleman;
Yes I'm set up to test, D&A,clean and adjust to specs.
Send me an E-mail and I'll send you the prices.
Chapter One has the old test bench and all the tools for testing nozzles and pumps. [email protected] Bill Walter
"

With the injectors out, you can do a leak down test, putting compressed air into the cylinder after each one is turned to TDC compression stroke (use the marks on the fly wheel to set each one or put a wire or something down the PC chamber to tell when the piston is at TDC and watch the valve rockers). Leak down can easily show up burned or sticking valves, blown head gasket, burned pistons, broken or stuck rings etc. Just listen where the air is going. Each piston must be at TDC exactly or the engine will turn when you put air pressure on it. You can put the tractor in gear and engage the clutch with the brake locked for safety, but do have all the injectors out so there's no possibility it could start.

Most ponies have fuel supply problems stemming from rust in the tank coupled with varnish from old gasoline. Most people start with the carburetor, but it's helpful to do the tank and fuel lines first or at the same time, so you don't have more crud to come down into your newly cleaned carb after you get it back together.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Mon, Nov 26, 2012 4:03 AM
BillWalter
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Reply to ccjersey:
One injector isn't going to prevent one from running. Might not run with any power, but it should run.

Have you tried it with starting fluid?

It's pretty easy to do a rough check on the injectors. The operator's manual has the proceedure, but in a nutshell, you can take the injector lines loose and remove the injectors from the engine. Replace them on the lines with the nozzle pointing up instead of down into the engine and then using the starting motor to spin the main engine, open the throttle. You can watch the spray pattern (or lack of a spray pattern) and compare them. A piece of dark material held behind the injector can make it easier to see the spray, but BE CAREFUL not to get fuel injected under your skin. It is likely to cause gangrene and result in severe damage if not treated properly immediately. Any problems, don't meddle with the injector adjustment unless you know what you're doing and have the tooling. Bill will likely be along soon, but here's a post he put up back in October.

"Gentleman;
Yes I'm set up to test, D&A,clean and adjust to specs.
Send me an E-mail and I'll send you the prices.
Chapter One has the old test bench and all the tools for testing nozzles and pumps. [email protected] Bill Walter
"

With the injectors out, you can do a leak down test, putting compressed air into the cylinder after each one is turned to TDC compression stroke (use the marks on the fly wheel to set each one or put a wire or something down the PC chamber to tell when the piston is at TDC and watch the valve rockers). Leak down can easily show up burned or sticking valves, blown head gasket, burned pistons, broken or stuck rings etc. Just listen where the air is going. Each piston must be at TDC exactly or the engine will turn when you put air pressure on it. You can put the tractor in gear and engage the clutch with the brake locked for safety, but do have all the injectors out so there's no possibility it could start.

Most ponies have fuel supply problems stemming from rust in the tank coupled with varnish from old gasoline. Most people start with the carburetor, but it's helpful to do the tank and fuel lines first or at the same time, so you don't have more crud to come down into your newly cleaned carb after you get it back together.
As stated, you need to start at the beginning with a machine that's been sitting around that long. Drain the tank and clean. Clean the fuel lines. Drain and clean the fuel filter housing and install new filters.
Remove the pumps and flush the fuel passages of the pump housing. I can check pump preformance and test the injectors, and if necessary, dissasemble, clean and assemble, set the pressure and stop clearence. Write to me and I'll send you the prices. [email protected]
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Mon, Nov 26, 2012 8:24 AM
BillWalter
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Reply to BillWalter:
As stated, you need to start at the beginning with a machine that's been sitting around that long. Drain the tank and clean. Clean the fuel lines. Drain and clean the fuel filter housing and install new filters.
Remove the pumps and flush the fuel passages of the pump housing. I can check pump preformance and test the injectors, and if necessary, dissasemble, clean and assemble, set the pressure and stop clearence. Write to me and I'll send you the prices. [email protected]
Chaec with Al Engnes, [email protected] He may be able to help you on a Carb. Bill Walter
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Mon, Nov 26, 2012 8:31 AM
mike in ca
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Reply to BillWalter:
Chaec with Al Engnes, [email protected] He may be able to help you on a Carb. Bill Walter
I have all of the fuel nozzles and the injector pumps removed and I will have them in the mail to Bill, monday. It is going to need a lot of work but I cant wait to get to drive this old RD4. The starting engine carb and the radiator are the next major problems I need to address.
Mike

RD4 4G2183
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Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:41 AM
mike in ca
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Reply to mike in ca:
I have all of the fuel nozzles and the injector pumps removed and I will have them in the mail to Bill, monday. It is going to need a lot of work but I cant wait to get to drive this old RD4. The starting engine carb and the radiator are the next major problems I need to address.
I got the injectors back monday night. I am going to try to install them tomorrow. The neighbor has a depth micrometer so I can set the timing. I want to pull the valve cover and make sure the valves are not stuck and to set the clearances. Anyone know what the valve clearances are cold?

It looks like the very bottom of the oil pan can be removed? How hard is it to take off the bottom of the oil pan off? I would like to make sure the oil pickup screen is clear of sludge and junk. What kind of oil to you recommend for the main engine? Should I get it from a cat dealer? The cat dealer is open till 12 tomorrow. I am going for broke and want to hear it run this weekend.
Mike

RD4 4G2183
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Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:28 AM
drujinin
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Reply to mike in ca:
I got the injectors back monday night. I am going to try to install them tomorrow. The neighbor has a depth micrometer so I can set the timing. I want to pull the valve cover and make sure the valves are not stuck and to set the clearances. Anyone know what the valve clearances are cold?

It looks like the very bottom of the oil pan can be removed? How hard is it to take off the bottom of the oil pan off? I would like to make sure the oil pickup screen is clear of sludge and junk. What kind of oil to you recommend for the main engine? Should I get it from a cat dealer? The cat dealer is open till 12 tomorrow. I am going for broke and want to hear it run this weekend.
I didn't read this in the morning. Any Diesel grade of Motor Oil of your favorite Brand would have been fine. Most guys get 30 or 40 weight for the old tractors. Get it running, run it for a while then drain that out while its hot so the crud is floating in suspension. Then change the oil fillter, not sure on that particular tractor but it is a 2 part probably. A screen for the full flow and inside of that is another filter which is paper or old rope type. this is a bypass to "clean" the oil. there is a NAPA/WIX part number for that filter as I am sure its the same one used in the D2's.
As far as the gas to the carb, I usually use a plastic lawn mower gas tank and a rubber hose to work through the carb issues. then make sure the steel tank and line is CLEAN! Before using it. Use the search funnction the upper right corner to find out various ways to clean the gas tank.
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Sun, Jan 20, 2013 6:54 AM
mike in ca
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Reply to drujinin:
I didn't read this in the morning. Any Diesel grade of Motor Oil of your favorite Brand would have been fine. Most guys get 30 or 40 weight for the old tractors. Get it running, run it for a while then drain that out while its hot so the crud is floating in suspension. Then change the oil fillter, not sure on that particular tractor but it is a 2 part probably. A screen for the full flow and inside of that is another filter which is paper or old rope type. this is a bypass to "clean" the oil. there is a NAPA/WIX part number for that filter as I am sure its the same one used in the D2's.
As far as the gas to the carb, I usually use a plastic lawn mower gas tank and a rubber hose to work through the carb issues. then make sure the steel tank and line is CLEAN! Before using it. Use the search funnction the upper right corner to find out various ways to clean the gas tank.
I have been working on the RD4 all day and this is what I have so far. The fuel tank is dirty but I have it off the tractor and will clean it in the morning. I pulled the oil drain plug on the main engine and about 10 gallons of diesel/ oil mix came out! I thought someone had stolen the diesel out of the tank years ago but I guess not.

I removed the bottom of the air cleaner on the main engine and the entire air cleaner was full of water, thankfully it had oil in it with the water so it did not rust but the oil that was in there looks like sour creme! I have all but one of the filter elements out of the air cleaner and will steam clean it out with the fuel tank tomorrow.

The fuel filters are bad and will have to be replaced. My dad found a set of 4 new cat fuel filters at a garage sale but they are longer than the old ones. The new filters are Napa gold 3171 filters. Does that number fit a D4?

I pulled the plate off the bottom of the oil pan and there was one inch of sludge in the pan and the oil pump screen was completely plugged so it was cleaned and reinstalled. Any idea how much oil the main engine takes?

The oil filter housing says PureOlater on it and there is a paper filter in it. The filter in it says CAT 5S484. There is no top to prevent oil from just by passing the filter all together so I think that is what was happening. There is sludge in the base of the oil filter housing where the oil lines go to the oil cooler. Is there a trick to removing the oil filter housing?
Mike

RD4 4G2183
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Sun, Jan 20, 2013 10:55 AM
mike in ca
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Reply to mike in ca:
I have been working on the RD4 all day and this is what I have so far. The fuel tank is dirty but I have it off the tractor and will clean it in the morning. I pulled the oil drain plug on the main engine and about 10 gallons of diesel/ oil mix came out! I thought someone had stolen the diesel out of the tank years ago but I guess not.

I removed the bottom of the air cleaner on the main engine and the entire air cleaner was full of water, thankfully it had oil in it with the water so it did not rust but the oil that was in there looks like sour creme! I have all but one of the filter elements out of the air cleaner and will steam clean it out with the fuel tank tomorrow.

The fuel filters are bad and will have to be replaced. My dad found a set of 4 new cat fuel filters at a garage sale but they are longer than the old ones. The new filters are Napa gold 3171 filters. Does that number fit a D4?

I pulled the plate off the bottom of the oil pan and there was one inch of sludge in the pan and the oil pump screen was completely plugged so it was cleaned and reinstalled. Any idea how much oil the main engine takes?

The oil filter housing says PureOlater on it and there is a paper filter in it. The filter in it says CAT 5S484. There is no top to prevent oil from just by passing the filter all together so I think that is what was happening. There is sludge in the base of the oil filter housing where the oil lines go to the oil cooler. Is there a trick to removing the oil filter housing?
I found two stuck valves today. The two secondary brass screen fuel filters are missing as well. Along with several stripped out bolts and 4 pin holes in the bottom of the fuel tank. On a side note I did find a part number on the bottom of the tank and a hand written part number 3B8019. Dad is going to have the holes gas welded and coated inside. Any idea how all the diesel found its way from the fuel tank to the crankcase?
Mike

RD4 4G2183
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Mon, Jan 21, 2013 9:54 AM
edb
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Reply to mike in ca:
I found two stuck valves today. The two secondary brass screen fuel filters are missing as well. Along with several stripped out bolts and 4 pin holes in the bottom of the fuel tank. On a side note I did find a part number on the bottom of the tank and a hand written part number 3B8019. Dad is going to have the holes gas welded and coated inside. Any idea how all the diesel found its way from the fuel tank to the crankcase?
Hi Mike,
seems I wrote up something on the fuel transfer to the sump for someone recently--an Advanced Search acessed from the task bar above should get the data you need.
Not sure what part of the oil filter housing you wish to remove, if it is just the can then there is a nut down on the centre post that you need a tube spanner to undo. The can is held by this nut and a plate, the can maybe stuck to the square section seal ring that will now be hard as wood.
You will need to chisel out this seal and , the one in the cover, also the one on the retainer bolt--I think someone wrote recently of some better methods they found for this task --well better than the ones I was taught and used at The Dealer back in the day.
If it is just the oil filter base from the side of the cyl block then there should be 4 nuts on studs that hold it and, the manifold for the oil gallery line. The Gallery line comes off after removing the bolts at each main bearing station.
You will also need to remove the oil cooler lines from the base to remove it.

There have been some upgrades to the lube filter sytem to go to Full Flow from By-pass. All this data should be found from the Advanced Search also.
Basically it sounds like your unit is still By-pass and has had a Full flow filter element fitted by someone who was not aware if your unit had been updated or not.
Cat bought out Change Over Kits to do the conversion back in the early 1950's.
One way of telling a modified filter is the centre bolt that holds the cap on the filter has a big screw driver like slot cut across the top of the hexagon bolt head.
As you suggest for a modified unit there should be a plate top and bottom to seal the ends of the filter element.
The old wire wound screens had this built in--from memory.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
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Mon, Jan 21, 2013 11:19 AM
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