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OMG, have I been wrong all these years?

OMG, have I been wrong all these years?

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cojhl2
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This post is really two subjects. They both refer to my 5J.

1) Since I was a little kid (a long time ago) I was taught and always followed the practice of leaving the clutch disengaged when the engine is off and the Cat parked. This was meant to keep the plates from sticking. On the other hand never with the engine running should the clutch be disengaged.

When I tried to move my 5J after it sitting in the barn for 6mos I could not snap the clutch over center and had to loosen it. I have not run the tractor enough yet to see if the clutch will need adjusting back to the way it was.

2) My steering clutch handles are almost back to the seat. they have been this way ever since I owned the tractor. I always assumed they could be adjusted out of this condition to the proper 3in play. However, what I found is all the adjustment is taken up. Now what?? This must mean the throwout mechanism is shot no? I the only way to fix this is by tearing the tractor apart and replacing the throwout mechanism?

All help is appreciated.
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Mon, Sep 4, 2017 8:04 AM
drujinin
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1. Clutch plate swelled or rust formed in there. It will need adjusting after it dries out or rust comes out.
BTW I was always taught to leave it disengaged so they don't stick together.
2. I would assume that you started under the plates on the top of the transmission/Finals and found the adjuster for the steering clutches is all used up? If so, then yes you will be tearing into it, put in new Throwout Bearings while you are in there!

Or I maybe wrong on the second one, now that I think about it as the steering clutch plates swell, they levers move backward(memory?).
Either way you need to get the cover plate off and look down in there
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Mon, Sep 4, 2017 6:53 PM
neil
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Reply to drujinin:
1. Clutch plate swelled or rust formed in there. It will need adjusting after it dries out or rust comes out.
BTW I was always taught to leave it disengaged so they don't stick together.
2. I would assume that you started under the plates on the top of the transmission/Finals and found the adjuster for the steering clutches is all used up? If so, then yes you will be tearing into it, put in new Throwout Bearings while you are in there!

Or I maybe wrong on the second one, now that I think about it as the steering clutch plates swell, they levers move backward(memory?).
Either way you need to get the cover plate off and look down in there
Yes the levers move back as the steering clutch plates swell, because the release bearing is moved in the direction of disengagement. As the plates wear, the levers would move forward (apart from the bump stops) and the bearing moves in the direction of engagement, so the adjustment bolt must be lengthened to maintain the correct lever position.
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Mon, Sep 4, 2017 6:59 PM
ccjersey
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If your steering clutches work fine with the levers back close to the seat there is no real problem. As pointed out earlier, with wear, the clutch pack thickness decreases until the lever has moved forward and begins to ride against the bumper and keeps thrust pressure against the release bearing so it wears out faster. This also counteracts some of the spring force that keeps the clutch pack engaged and it will begin to slip under load thereby wearing the clutch faster.

I wonder if someone reassembled yours with aftermarket discs or used disks and added an extra disk to get up to minimum spec but that puts the finished dimension at greater than normal. Of course the discs could be swelled with rust behind the riveted linings and wind up the same.

If you want to move the levers back forward you should be able to lengthen the linkage running back from the base of the levers to the belcrank where the adjuster is.

The other possibility is the release bearings are failing but I don't think they will have run long until you would no longer be able to disengage the clutches. Also unlikely that both of them would have failed in the same manner, to the same degree and at the same time.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Mon, Sep 4, 2017 9:05 PM
dpendzic
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Reply to ccjersey:
If your steering clutches work fine with the levers back close to the seat there is no real problem. As pointed out earlier, with wear, the clutch pack thickness decreases until the lever has moved forward and begins to ride against the bumper and keeps thrust pressure against the release bearing so it wears out faster. This also counteracts some of the spring force that keeps the clutch pack engaged and it will begin to slip under load thereby wearing the clutch faster.

I wonder if someone reassembled yours with aftermarket discs or used disks and added an extra disk to get up to minimum spec but that puts the finished dimension at greater than normal. Of course the discs could be swelled with rust behind the riveted linings and wind up the same.

If you want to move the levers back forward you should be able to lengthen the linkage running back from the base of the levers to the belcrank where the adjuster is.

The other possibility is the release bearings are failing but I don't think they will have run long until you would no longer be able to disengage the clutches. Also unlikely that both of them would have failed in the same manner, to the same degree and at the same time.
If the steering clutches are under compression (engaged) for long term storage (never heard of anyone tieing the levers back) why not leave the main clutch engaged also??
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Mon, Sep 4, 2017 9:24 PM
cojhl2
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Reply to ccjersey:
If your steering clutches work fine with the levers back close to the seat there is no real problem. As pointed out earlier, with wear, the clutch pack thickness decreases until the lever has moved forward and begins to ride against the bumper and keeps thrust pressure against the release bearing so it wears out faster. This also counteracts some of the spring force that keeps the clutch pack engaged and it will begin to slip under load thereby wearing the clutch faster.

I wonder if someone reassembled yours with aftermarket discs or used disks and added an extra disk to get up to minimum spec but that puts the finished dimension at greater than normal. Of course the discs could be swelled with rust behind the riveted linings and wind up the same.

If you want to move the levers back forward you should be able to lengthen the linkage running back from the base of the levers to the belcrank where the adjuster is.

The other possibility is the release bearings are failing but I don't think they will have run long until you would no longer be able to disengage the clutches. Also unlikely that both of them would have failed in the same manner, to the same degree and at the same time.
Thank you guys for your response(s).

I'm still at a little baffled because it seems that as the slack in the handles would increase as the clutch pack wears.

A few years back there was a thread that discussed this, and there was confusion then I remember. I must go back and find that thread.

Anyway this winter I will move the tractor in the shop and tear it down, The adjustment is entirely used up.
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Mon, Sep 4, 2017 9:38 PM
ccjersey
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I cannot tell you about your adjustment nut, but I can assure you that as the clutches wear the slack in the levers decreases until in most machines the lever is resting on the bumper and there is no free travel left. Ultimately, if the adjustment is kept up with, the clutch pack will wear enough that the clutch drums bottom out and further compression of the pack is no longer possible. I don't know if there is enough adjustment in the mechanism to get to that stage but the end point will be when the clutch is slipping under load and there is no more adjustment and there is no free travel, not when there is too much.

The result of too much free travel would be the clutches not disengaging to turn. Do you have that problem? Of course it is pretty common for the steering clutches to stick and not disengage even when the lever and release mechanism is working properly and removing the spring pressure from the clutch pack.

I agree that the main clutch is probably best left disengaged (lever forward). It is fairly common for regular "foot" clutches that stay engaged all the time to stick when they sit unused a long time. This presents a difficult problem to unstick it because it is hard to use the engine power. You resort to starting it up in gear and it needs to be in a high gear for best results so it can be "fun"!

Best to avoid all that and leave the main clutch disengaged.

Tying the steering clutches back might not be a bad idea but I wonder if the clutch pack springs might fatigue faster being compressed all the time. I am sure you would get some rust on the steel disk surfaces in the clutch pack that would have to be polished off each time you used the machine, so the overall rate of wear would probably be faster .........but you wouldn't be dealing with stuck clutches.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Mon, Sep 4, 2017 11:23 PM
bcwayne
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In my experience with D2's, when the steering clutch levers lay too far back it's because the clutch packs have begun to swell due to rust. If they're not too bad you can run the adjuster into the pinch nut until the square head is practically buried, and you may regain some clutch release... in most cases it's time for a tear down.

As others have said, with normal wear, the free play decreases and the levers migrate towards the dash... if it gets bad enough the tractor will cease to move under load because the clutches are slipping. To regain the prescribed 3'' of free play under these conditions, back the adjusters towards the center of the tractor.

That's all I got.
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Tue, Sep 5, 2017 12:39 AM
dpendzic
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Reply to bcwayne:
In my experience with D2's, when the steering clutch levers lay too far back it's because the clutch packs have begun to swell due to rust. If they're not too bad you can run the adjuster into the pinch nut until the square head is practically buried, and you may regain some clutch release... in most cases it's time for a tear down.

As others have said, with normal wear, the free play decreases and the levers migrate towards the dash... if it gets bad enough the tractor will cease to move under load because the clutches are slipping. To regain the prescribed 3'' of free play under these conditions, back the adjusters towards the center of the tractor.

That's all I got.
[attachment=44549]resize of steer link.jpg[/attachment]

my D2 had some type of nuts added to take up some slack
Attachment
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Tue, Sep 5, 2017 1:20 AM
cojhl2
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Reply to dpendzic:
[attachment=44549]resize of steer link.jpg[/attachment]

my D2 had some type of nuts added to take up some slack
Attachment
OK, after reading carefully all your psots, this is what I'm going to do.

I went out and ran the Cat today,(Starting engine started with one pull!) and based on your knowledge posted to me I'm going to leave the clutches alone. Although the adjustment nuts are close to hiding within the cinch clevises there is still considerable working leverage. The tractor steers very well and there are no bad sounds coming from the throwout mechanism.

I assume as I use the cat the levers will migrate toward the dash as the plates wear down. And with my age and the hours the Cat will be used it will be my kids that have to worry about it.

I am however going to remove the track frames and fix the rollers. Also while the track is off I'm going to cut down 4in off the inside of the pads. The outside has already been cut by a previous owner.

Thank you every body for taking an interest and providing such good responses.
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Fri, Sep 8, 2017 10:33 AM
gauntjoh
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Reply to cojhl2:
OK, after reading carefully all your psots, this is what I'm going to do.

I went out and ran the Cat today,(Starting engine started with one pull!) and based on your knowledge posted to me I'm going to leave the clutches alone. Although the adjustment nuts are close to hiding within the cinch clevises there is still considerable working leverage. The tractor steers very well and there are no bad sounds coming from the throwout mechanism.

I assume as I use the cat the levers will migrate toward the dash as the plates wear down. And with my age and the hours the Cat will be used it will be my kids that have to worry about it.

I am however going to remove the track frames and fix the rollers. Also while the track is off I'm going to cut down 4in off the inside of the pads. The outside has already been cut by a previous owner.

Thank you every body for taking an interest and providing such good responses.
Hi, Regarding whether or not to park the machine with the main clutch engaged or disengaged...
I was always taught NEVER under any circumstances to get off a machine without moving the gears to neutral, engaging the hand clutch and setting the brake.
My concern would be that if you leave the main clutch disengaged, sooner or later you will probably leave it in gear creating a potentially dangerous situation.
I have seen an inexperienced driver get off his machine (a red one) to adjust his plough just throwing the clutch lever forward and leaving the machine in gear. When getting back on he grabbed the clutch lever to pull himself up, pulled it over centre, the machine set off throwing him over backwards. How he missed the plough landwheel is a miracle. Then he had to run after the machine and climb on whilst it was going to regain control. This could not have happened if he had followed the correct procedure.
In my humble opinion, ALWAYS select neutral and engage the main clutch before leaving the machine, either temporarily or at the end of the working day.
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Fri, Sep 8, 2017 11:33 PM
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