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Fuel question?

Fuel question?

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tctractors
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Just thought I would ask about Fuel used in CAT's, some years ago we had to clear an old Brick Yard and remove all the buildings that stood within a Muck-Shift to build a new Industrial Estate, in this Yard was a Fuel Tank with a massive amount of Kerosene that we had to remove also, anyhow the Muck-shift Foreman just ran all the D7 & 8's on it with a bit of ordinary Diesel mixed in, the Tractors ran no different and they started just as good, so is Kerosene (Heating Oil) an alternative fuel worth having about???? tctractors
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Wed, Dec 5, 2018 4:12 AM
catsilver
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Hi TC, all the machinery on the Falkland airport site back in the '80's were run on a 50/50 diesel kerosene mix because of concerns about gelling in the filters, we had no problems with them, a part from the sediment left in he ships tanks from heavy marine diesel.
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Wed, Dec 5, 2018 6:56 AM
edb
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Hi Team,
will just give some things I have experienced with other fuel for Diesels.

Our Australian National Antarctic Research Expedition Machines (ANARE) engines were set up at the Dealer, on the dyno, to run Aviation Turbine Kerosene (ATK) or (Jet A1)

The racks needed opening up as the more refined a fuel is the less heat value (Btu's) a given volume contains.

The ATK was used in cold conditions to due to it containing little or none of the wax that Diesel has--does not cloud and go viscous causing a no start until the wax melted by warming the entire fuel system.

Way back in the early days of 3208 engines they were fitted with lower compression pistons than they later had. In cold weather they could be reluctant starters so Cat recommended adding Heating Oil to the fuel at these times --cannot recall the ratio but it worked.
We encountered the reluctance to start and white pungent diesel smoke when running cold here in Melbourne even--rarely gets below freezing point on only a few days of the year.

I feel for normal weather operation that straight ATK/Kero would be too light on for injection pump component lubrication safety. I am not sure if the likes of Two Stroke Oil could safely be added to combat this--there are reports of some people doing this around here since the intro of Low Sulfur Fuel.

As you saw/experienced a mix of Diesel and Kero seemed to work in older style jerk pump type injection pumps and engines with precombustion chambers--not sure I would use it in modern distributor injection pumps or electronic common rail stuff at least not without consulting the makers.
Our newer low sulfur fuels are also known to have less lubricity than older type fuels so things start getting tricky.

Just some ramblings.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
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Wed, Dec 5, 2018 7:16 AM
Deas Plant.
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Reply to edb:
Hi Team,
will just give some things I have experienced with other fuel for Diesels.

Our Australian National Antarctic Research Expedition Machines (ANARE) engines were set up at the Dealer, on the dyno, to run Aviation Turbine Kerosene (ATK) or (Jet A1)

The racks needed opening up as the more refined a fuel is the less heat value (Btu's) a given volume contains.

The ATK was used in cold conditions to due to it containing little or none of the wax that Diesel has--does not cloud and go viscous causing a no start until the wax melted by warming the entire fuel system.

Way back in the early days of 3208 engines they were fitted with lower compression pistons than they later had. In cold weather they could be reluctant starters so Cat recommended adding Heating Oil to the fuel at these times --cannot recall the ratio but it worked.
We encountered the reluctance to start and white pungent diesel smoke when running cold here in Melbourne even--rarely gets below freezing point on only a few days of the year.

I feel for normal weather operation that straight ATK/Kero would be too light on for injection pump component lubrication safety. I am not sure if the likes of Two Stroke Oil could safely be added to combat this--there are reports of some people doing this around here since the intro of Low Sulfur Fuel.

As you saw/experienced a mix of Diesel and Kero seemed to work in older style jerk pump type injection pumps and engines with precombustion chambers--not sure I would use it in modern distributor injection pumps or electronic common rail stuff at least not without consulting the makers.
Our newer low sulfur fuels are also known to have less lubricity than older type fuels so things start getting tricky.

Just some ramblings.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
.
Hi, tctractors.
As I understand it, all of the earlier Cats that the U. S. took down to Antarctica were run exclusively on aviation kerosene to avoid the problem of the wax in the normal diesel fuel 'jelling', as edb mentioned. To the best of my knowledge, neither Mary Ann nor Rebecca had any adjustments done to them when Glen Ghilotti bought them, but were just filled with normal diesel fuel. I have never run Rebecca but Mary Ann seemed to run just great.

That is not to say that adjustments weren't made to them when they were down on the ice but, if any were done, they didn't seem to bother Mary Ann back here.

Just my 0.02.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Wed, Dec 5, 2018 8:38 AM
Ray54
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Reply to Deas Plant.:
Hi, tctractors.
As I understand it, all of the earlier Cats that the U. S. took down to Antarctica were run exclusively on aviation kerosene to avoid the problem of the wax in the normal diesel fuel 'jelling', as edb mentioned. To the best of my knowledge, neither Mary Ann nor Rebecca had any adjustments done to them when Glen Ghilotti bought them, but were just filled with normal diesel fuel. I have never run Rebecca but Mary Ann seemed to run just great.

That is not to say that adjustments weren't made to them when they were down on the ice but, if any were done, they didn't seem to bother Mary Ann back here.

Just my 0.02.
California changed the taxes on kerosene 25 or 30 years ago because it had been cheaper than diesel. It came to the states attention that a big trucking company was buying kerosene by the tanker load direct from the refinery and putting it the diesel storage tank. I don't know what % they ran or if it mattered to them. This was probably be the same time we got red dyed diesel. Or at least that was the story the oil companies gave. As my cousin was working for a local fuel supplier, at the time kerosene went way up in price.
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Thu, Dec 6, 2018 3:47 AM
ronm
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Reply to Ray54:
California changed the taxes on kerosene 25 or 30 years ago because it had been cheaper than diesel. It came to the states attention that a big trucking company was buying kerosene by the tanker load direct from the refinery and putting it the diesel storage tank. I don't know what % they ran or if it mattered to them. This was probably be the same time we got red dyed diesel. Or at least that was the story the oil companies gave. As my cousin was working for a local fuel supplier, at the time kerosene went way up in price.
"Here", kerosene is about twice the price of diesel. I'm not sure if any of the bulk stations even have it...Home Depot, Wally World, & TSC have it in gallon cans for heaters & such, but you wouldn't want to feed a Caterpillar at that price.

Edit: I underestimated. Imagine filling up a D9 at this price...

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-1-gal-Plastic-Kerosene-GKP85/203000700
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Thu, Dec 6, 2018 9:28 PM
neil
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Reply to ronm:
"Here", kerosene is about twice the price of diesel. I'm not sure if any of the bulk stations even have it...Home Depot, Wally World, & TSC have it in gallon cans for heaters & such, but you wouldn't want to feed a Caterpillar at that price.

Edit: I underestimated. Imagine filling up a D9 at this price...

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-1-gal-Plastic-Kerosene-GKP85/203000700
Interesting - kerosene isn't much more than diesel here - about 3.60 vs 3.30. There is a big sign on the bowser though that says don't use this on the road....
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Fri, Dec 7, 2018 7:14 AM
drujinin
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Reply to neil:
Interesting - kerosene isn't much more than diesel here - about 3.60 vs 3.30. There is a big sign on the bowser though that says don't use this on the road....
A couple of the local Gas Stations carry it for the Ice Fishermen.
My Bulk Delivery Company carries it and will fill a 55 gallon drum when they come buy as long as you ask them to bring it.
I use it in the Torpedo Heaters cause in my opinion it is cleaner burning than diesel.
Somewhere I read an OLD Caterpillar Advertisement that stated you can use Kerosene and other Low Grade Fuels.
Wish I could remember where??
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Fri, Dec 7, 2018 7:56 AM
Deas Plant.
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Reply to drujinin:
A couple of the local Gas Stations carry it for the Ice Fishermen.
My Bulk Delivery Company carries it and will fill a 55 gallon drum when they come buy as long as you ask them to bring it.
I use it in the Torpedo Heaters cause in my opinion it is cleaner burning than diesel.
Somewhere I read an OLD Caterpillar Advertisement that stated you can use Kerosene and other Low Grade Fuels.
Wish I could remember where??
Hi, Drujinin.
Back in the 1940s - 1950s. Cat used to advertise that their diesels could be run on #2 burner fuel, a heavier, less refined version of diesel fuel. I got the chance to try it when I was a teenager, burning it in a 2T D4 and it 'ackshully' gave a little more power than the normal diesel fuel. I was up one gear pulling tandem plows in most places.

Just my 0.02.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Fri, Dec 7, 2018 9:21 AM
dpendzic
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Reply to Deas Plant.:
Hi, Drujinin.
Back in the 1940s - 1950s. Cat used to advertise that their diesels could be run on #2 burner fuel, a heavier, less refined version of diesel fuel. I got the chance to try it when I was a teenager, burning it in a 2T D4 and it 'ackshully' gave a little more power than the normal diesel fuel. I was up one gear pulling tandem plows in most places.

Just my 0.02.
If I remember right my R2 manual said to start it on gas but could switch over to kerosene--it did have 2 gas tanks.
I have been using home heating oil in my 941B for the last 25 years, as I was told by Cat it would give me a little more power and be cheaper, but now with the ultra low sulfer fuels I add lubrication additives
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Fri, Dec 7, 2018 10:35 AM
Paso Bob
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Reply to Deas Plant.:
Hi, Drujinin.
Back in the 1940s - 1950s. Cat used to advertise that their diesels could be run on #2 burner fuel, a heavier, less refined version of diesel fuel. I got the chance to try it when I was a teenager, burning it in a 2T D4 and it 'ackshully' gave a little more power than the normal diesel fuel. I was up one gear pulling tandem plows in most places.

Just my 0.02.
[quote="Deas Plant."]Hi, Drujinin.
Back in the 1940s - 1950s. Cat used to advertise that their diesels could be run on #2 burner fuel, a heavier, less refined version of diesel fuel. I got the chance to try it when I was a teenager, burning it in a 2T D4 and it 'ackshully' gave a little more power than the normal diesel fuel. I was up one gear pulling tandem plows in most places.

Just my 0.02.[/quote]

Deas, I cant believe you actually ran a piece of farm equipment. You aren't a farmer, you are an earth sculpture. Kinda tarnishing your reputation.
D-4 7U-43159 with 4S dozer and Cat 40 scraper, D-7 3T-1179 with Cat 7S hydraulic dozer, D-7 17A 13,944, D-8 14A-1160 with Cat 8S cable dozer, Cat 12-99E-4433 Grader. All runners and users.
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Fri, Dec 7, 2018 11:34 AM
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