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Started the 46-30 today...sort of.

Started the 46-30 today...sort of.

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snowshoveler
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I got the new seal for the pony crank today.
Installed it and reassembled everything.
A few more pulls than I would like and the pony was running pretty nice.
A few carb tweaks and its better.
Thought I might as well see how the main engine responds to starting from a pony.
I should mention that I have started this engine a few times with the direct electric starter.
Also started my d4400 with the direct electric hundreds of times.
However this was the first time starting a cat with a pony all by my self.
Its a little intimidating at first but just follow the steps and don't make any crunchy noises happen.
So I rolled it a bit and the lube and fuel pressure came into the green quickly.
Bumped the compression in and rolled it a bit more.
When I felt things were warm enough I pulled the fuel on and away it went.
Of course I stalled the main just about the time the pony ran out of fuel because I shut it off.
I tried to get it running again...but not gonna happen.
I must not have the carb quite right.
Pretty pleased with things so far.
And many thanks to you folks for helping me along the way.
Regards Chris
193? d4400 cat powerunit
1950 john deere M
1959 international t5 crawler
1977 powerking 1216 tractor
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Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:38 AM
snowshoveler
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I may or may not have discovered my problem.
There is a gasket that goes with the high speed metering tube.
The manual and parts list that I have did not show this.
While looking at other folks carb troubles I found the gasket picture.
Will install one in the morning and see how it runs.
Thanks for now.
Chris
193? d4400 cat powerunit
1950 john deere M
1959 international t5 crawler
1977 powerking 1216 tractor
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Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:58 AM
ccjersey
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Glad to hear it runs!

On the gasket, a little circular gasket that goes on the threaded end? Probably would help to have it, but if you were getting it to turn the main engine well enough to start it, I doubt that's your trouble. Could have stayed in the carburetor bowl body when you took the well out so you didn't see it?

Does it sputter every now and then or just nothing. Fuel out the cylinder petcocks or dry? spark? both sides? Have heard of one breaking a tooth on the mag drive gear as it popped and spit while running out of fuel etc. I like to idle the pony down as soon as I get the main engine running and then turn off the fuel. Takes it a while to use up all the gas, but it's lots easier on my ears!

I believe if your pony pinion latches are operating properly, you can always motor the pony over with the direct electric starter turning the main engine, but if you latch the pinion in, it does make it a bit harder to crank most pony motors by hand. Seems the pinion clutch almost always has some drag.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:28 AM
snowshoveler
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Reply to ccjersey:
Glad to hear it runs!

On the gasket, a little circular gasket that goes on the threaded end? Probably would help to have it, but if you were getting it to turn the main engine well enough to start it, I doubt that's your trouble. Could have stayed in the carburetor bowl body when you took the well out so you didn't see it?

Does it sputter every now and then or just nothing. Fuel out the cylinder petcocks or dry? spark? both sides? Have heard of one breaking a tooth on the mag drive gear as it popped and spit while running out of fuel etc. I like to idle the pony down as soon as I get the main engine running and then turn off the fuel. Takes it a while to use up all the gas, but it's lots easier on my ears!

I believe if your pony pinion latches are operating properly, you can always motor the pony over with the direct electric starter turning the main engine, but if you latch the pinion in, it does make it a bit harder to crank most pony motors by hand. Seems the pinion clutch almost always has some drag.
The gasket in question was found on the operating table with a few other parts from a doner carb.
The direct electric start has been "borrowed" for the D6 9U, not sure if I should put it back at this time.
Pretty sure that once I have the pony "right" it will start and run with 1 or 2 pulls. They are supposed to right.
When thats all said and done I plan to run up the main and then check the output of the gen end.
Actually a friend of mine that is an industrial electrician will be doing the electrical check work.
I am not much interested in letting out any magic smoke.
Regards Chris
193? d4400 cat powerunit
1950 john deere M
1959 international t5 crawler
1977 powerking 1216 tractor
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Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:42 AM
snowshoveler
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Reply to snowshoveler:
The gasket in question was found on the operating table with a few other parts from a doner carb.
The direct electric start has been "borrowed" for the D6 9U, not sure if I should put it back at this time.
Pretty sure that once I have the pony "right" it will start and run with 1 or 2 pulls. They are supposed to right.
When thats all said and done I plan to run up the main and then check the output of the gen end.
Actually a friend of mine that is an industrial electrician will be doing the electrical check work.
I am not much interested in letting out any magic smoke.
Regards Chris
Persistance and guidance pays off...yippie.
I installed the little gasket and within a few tugs of the cord she came to life.
Warmed up the main and it to came to life.
Took me a while to get the exciter excited...I had a meter plugged into it.
Leaned on the brushes a bit and it did its thing.
I very carefuly...with welding gloves on, metered out the leads from the gen end.
Woo hoo we have 120 volts available.
Now to get my buddy over here and do a bit of wiring.
[attachment=15467]HPIM4527.jpg[/attachment][attachment=15468]HPIM4526.jpg[/attachment][attachment=15469]HPIM4525.jpg[/attachment][attachment=15470]HPIM4524.jpg[/attachment][attachment=15471]HPIM4523.jpg[/attachment][ATTACH=CONFIG]]
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193? d4400 cat powerunit
1950 john deere M
1959 international t5 crawler
1977 powerking 1216 tractor
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Mon, Nov 19, 2012 12:20 AM
snowshoveler
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Reply to snowshoveler:
Persistance and guidance pays off...yippie.
I installed the little gasket and within a few tugs of the cord she came to life.
Warmed up the main and it to came to life.
Took me a while to get the exciter excited...I had a meter plugged into it.
Leaned on the brushes a bit and it did its thing.
I very carefuly...with welding gloves on, metered out the leads from the gen end.
Woo hoo we have 120 volts available.
Now to get my buddy over here and do a bit of wiring.
[attachment=15467]HPIM4527.jpg[/attachment][attachment=15468]HPIM4526.jpg[/attachment][attachment=15469]HPIM4525.jpg[/attachment][attachment=15470]HPIM4524.jpg[/attachment][attachment=15471]HPIM4523.jpg[/attachment][ATTACH=CONFIG]]
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The father in law stopped by this afternoon, he is a retired marine engineer.
He knows a bit about electricity. Mostly 3 phase stuff.
We determined that when last used the gen was using 4 leads.
T2 and another unmarked lead are paired.
T3 is used by itself.
T8 is used by itself.
The other leads appear to have never been unwrapped and used.
Still have the gummy fibre tape on them.
Am I correct in thinking that its set at single phase and with 2 120 feeds.
With proper breakers and transfer switches it will make a good standby unit?
Next move I think will be to put a good load on it. I will look for 2 or 3 of those 5000 watt construction heaters.
10 to 15 k for an hour or so should do it good.
Any ideas about this.
Regards Chris
193? d4400 cat powerunit
1950 john deere M
1959 international t5 crawler
1977 powerking 1216 tractor
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Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:55 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to snowshoveler:
The father in law stopped by this afternoon, he is a retired marine engineer.
He knows a bit about electricity. Mostly 3 phase stuff.
We determined that when last used the gen was using 4 leads.
T2 and another unmarked lead are paired.
T3 is used by itself.
T8 is used by itself.
The other leads appear to have never been unwrapped and used.
Still have the gummy fibre tape on them.
Am I correct in thinking that its set at single phase and with 2 120 feeds.
With proper breakers and transfer switches it will make a good standby unit?
Next move I think will be to put a good load on it. I will look for 2 or 3 of those 5000 watt construction heaters.
10 to 15 k for an hour or so should do it good.
Any ideas about this.
Regards Chris
Check the connection diagram in the Operators Instruction post I sent you awhile back.
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Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:19 AM
snowshoveler
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Check the connection diagram in the Operators Instruction post I sent you awhile back.
Thanks Old Magnet.
I copied and printed the earlier help from you and the father in law kidnapped it.
I am sorry to say I forgot about it.
Printed it again an will keep it with the genset.
Learning all the time and thats great.
Maybe some day I will be smart enough to be able to change a lamp bulb...lol.
I have located a couple of the 5 k heaters with a breaker panel and wiring.
If I am lucky I can get my buddy to wire it up for me next weekend.
thanks again Chris
193? d4400 cat powerunit
1950 john deere M
1959 international t5 crawler
1977 powerking 1216 tractor
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Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:50 AM
ccjersey
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Using the schematic that Old Magnet posted, this is the zig-zag connection. The pair of leads should be your neutral, T3 should be a line and T 8 should be the other one. Should find 240 volts between T3 and T8 and 120 between either one and neutral.

First thing you may need is a breaker or fused disconnect at the generator to feed the wire to the transfer switch. This protects your generator from serious overload or short circuit in the wiring up to the main breaker at your panel. If the distance is very short, inspectors will usually allow you to connect directly without a disconnect or breaker, but still a great idea to have it even if no inspection needed or they don't require. Breaker or fuses should be 100 amp and wire large enough to handle 100 amp over the distance to the main panel without serious voltage drop.

Transfer switch for whole house load must handle the whole service amp rating, so if you have a 200 amp service (almost a minimum for new installations these days), you need a 200 amp switch. Many times the 200 is cheaper than a smaller one anyway, just because they sell so many more of them. Unless you run into a stubborn uninfomed inspector, you do not need a generator capbable of supplying 200 amps to supply a 200 amp transfer switch. If you really did have 200 amp worth of load in your house, you would have to shut off stuff until your generator could handle the amps. Most folks have sense enough to do this, but have hears of situations where they couldn't get an approval without buying a larger generator.

With a 2 pole single phase transfer switch, to meet code, your neutral connection (the T2 and T9 pair) would be "floating", in other words not connected to the frame or ground at the generator. It would connect to the neutral wire feeding into the transfer switch and the transfer switch should carry the neutral on through to the main panel or sevice entry where it is already bonded to ground. Connect ground wire in cable or conduit to transfer switch to frame of generator in connection box (and drive a ground rod at generator and connect ground wire to it as well if you want). The two lines connect to the switch and lines to main panel are transferred when you throw the handle.

If your generator will light a 120 volt test light by touching one of the lines and the generator frame or ground lug, it has a neutral to ground bond somewhere which must be lifted (if it can be) or use a 3 pole transfer switch so the neutral is transferred as well as the two lines.

This is all so that there is only a single neutral to ground bond in use at one time. If the neutral is bonded to ground at the generator like a lot of small portable sets are and used with a 2 pole transfer switch, that makes 2 bonds active at all times the generator is connected. I think a lot of the smaller generators with receptacles mounted on them are used with 2 pole transfer switches assuming the generator won't stay plugged into the transfer switch inlet plug unless it's being used. Hard wired generator should have floating neutral or 3 pole transfer switch. In practical terms, this prevents any neutral current (120 volt loads current runs in the neutral wire) from ever getting into the safety grounding wires which are connected to the surfaces of appliances and equipment that people touch. It's a long shot that this would ever cause problems, but has done if a ground connection was broken or corroded in the wrong place, so that's why the code is written that way.

As to whether this is a good backup generator, it depends mostly on what kind of load you will be putting on it and whether you can keep fuel in it and if you can start it when you need it. I would install the transfer switch and if you don't end up keeping the CAT as your backup, you can easily connect another generator to your transfer switch.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:00 AM
snowshoveler
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Reply to ccjersey:
Using the schematic that Old Magnet posted, this is the zig-zag connection. The pair of leads should be your neutral, T3 should be a line and T 8 should be the other one. Should find 240 volts between T3 and T8 and 120 between either one and neutral.

First thing you may need is a breaker or fused disconnect at the generator to feed the wire to the transfer switch. This protects your generator from serious overload or short circuit in the wiring up to the main breaker at your panel. If the distance is very short, inspectors will usually allow you to connect directly without a disconnect or breaker, but still a great idea to have it even if no inspection needed or they don't require. Breaker or fuses should be 100 amp and wire large enough to handle 100 amp over the distance to the main panel without serious voltage drop.

Transfer switch for whole house load must handle the whole service amp rating, so if you have a 200 amp service (almost a minimum for new installations these days), you need a 200 amp switch. Many times the 200 is cheaper than a smaller one anyway, just because they sell so many more of them. Unless you run into a stubborn uninfomed inspector, you do not need a generator capbable of supplying 200 amps to supply a 200 amp transfer switch. If you really did have 200 amp worth of load in your house, you would have to shut off stuff until your generator could handle the amps. Most folks have sense enough to do this, but have hears of situations where they couldn't get an approval without buying a larger generator.

With a 2 pole single phase transfer switch, to meet code, your neutral connection (the T2 and T9 pair) would be "floating", in other words not connected to the frame or ground at the generator. It would connect to the neutral wire feeding into the transfer switch and the transfer switch should carry the neutral on through to the main panel or sevice entry where it is already bonded to ground. Connect ground wire in cable or conduit to transfer switch to frame of generator in connection box (and drive a ground rod at generator and connect ground wire to it as well if you want). The two lines connect to the switch and lines to main panel are transferred when you throw the handle.

If your generator will light a 120 volt test light by touching one of the lines and the generator frame or ground lug, it has a neutral to ground bond somewhere which must be lifted (if it can be) or use a 3 pole transfer switch so the neutral is transferred as well as the two lines.

This is all so that there is only a single neutral to ground bond in use at one time. If the neutral is bonded to ground at the generator like a lot of small portable sets are and used with a 2 pole transfer switch, that makes 2 bonds active at all times the generator is connected. I think a lot of the smaller generators with receptacles mounted on them are used with 2 pole transfer switches assuming the generator won't stay plugged into the transfer switch inlet plug unless it's being used. Hard wired generator should have floating neutral or 3 pole transfer switch. In practical terms, this prevents any neutral current (120 volt loads current runs in the neutral wire) from ever getting into the safety grounding wires which are connected to the surfaces of appliances and equipment that people touch. It's a long shot that this would ever cause problems, but has done if a ground connection was broken or corroded in the wrong place, so that's why the code is written that way.

As to whether this is a good backup generator, it depends mostly on what kind of load you will be putting on it and whether you can keep fuel in it and if you can start it when you need it. I would install the transfer switch and if you don't end up keeping the CAT as your backup, you can easily connect another generator to your transfer switch.
Thank you ccjersey...
I will get the genset wired with breakers and load it with the heaters next weekend.
No connection to the house at this time.
If it passes the test it will get its own building and all proper switch gear and wiring.
Not sure about fuel consumption.
My D4400 on my sawmill which runs at 1550 is very good on fuel.
The 46 30 runs at 1200 ...with a reasonable load it too should be not bad on fuel.
I would think It will need a good load to prevent wet stacking.
I don't forsee needing to run it for a week at a time but Sandy just proved as an eye opener.
I also have a DJB onan thats 6K and could switch back and forth depending on needs at the time.
We are very fortunate here and the electric has been reliable for some time, wasn't always so.
Regards Chris
193? d4400 cat powerunit
1950 john deere M
1959 international t5 crawler
1977 powerking 1216 tractor
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:17 AM
snowshoveler
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Reply to snowshoveler:
Thank you ccjersey...
I will get the genset wired with breakers and load it with the heaters next weekend.
No connection to the house at this time.
If it passes the test it will get its own building and all proper switch gear and wiring.
Not sure about fuel consumption.
My D4400 on my sawmill which runs at 1550 is very good on fuel.
The 46 30 runs at 1200 ...with a reasonable load it too should be not bad on fuel.
I would think It will need a good load to prevent wet stacking.
I don't forsee needing to run it for a week at a time but Sandy just proved as an eye opener.
I also have a DJB onan thats 6K and could switch back and forth depending on needs at the time.
We are very fortunate here and the electric has been reliable for some time, wasn't always so.
Regards Chris
It's cooler here this evening, about freezing temp.
I thought it would be a good time to check my starting ability.
The pony started right up on the 3rd pull I think.
May start easier if change out the 15-40 oil I put in it.
Seems like the little guy pulls hard.
I won't mention how many times I tied my self in a knot trying to start it on Saturday.
Now that I have all the bits in the carb it might just be okay.
I think a good muffler might not be a bad thing for the pony. They certainly are an obnoxious thing.
The main engine with a straight pipe is much quieter.
Regards Chris
193? d4400 cat powerunit
1950 john deere M
1959 international t5 crawler
1977 powerking 1216 tractor
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Tue, Nov 20, 2012 7:17 AM
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