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Side hill angle

Side hill angle

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silverstreak
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I use a D2 5U orchard model, wide gauge tractor built in 1954 to disk hilly properties that are in some cases pretty steep. I was wondering if anyone knows how steep is too steep. Many times i've been doing this and will slide sideways and have to turn uphill slightly and keep going. It doesn't seem too dangerous but always am aware of running over a stump with the upper track, or go into a hole with the lower track. Is there any kind of rule of thumb that someone can pass on? I have heard of tractors rolling over before so I know it can happen.
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Sat, May 19, 2018 10:28 PM
neil
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If you guesstimate the center of gravity as equal with the crankshaft, then figure the angle from that to outside of your track shoe and that's your do-not-exceed with no leeway. (only way to know for sure what the COG under controlled circumstances is, is to test for it, since it can vary with fuel tank fill, operator weight, attachments, etc.). Given these units don't come with ROPS or seatbelts and padding, I'd want to go even more conservatively. But you can workaround it by traveling in a more up-and-down fashion than directly sideways - just make sure your equalizer spring mounts are secure so that to tip fore-and-aft, it would also need to pick up the tracks. My great-uncle was killed in a sidehill rollover that was, like most incidents, avoidable.
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Sat, May 19, 2018 11:12 PM
Rome K/G
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Reply to neil:
If you guesstimate the center of gravity as equal with the crankshaft, then figure the angle from that to outside of your track shoe and that's your do-not-exceed with no leeway. (only way to know for sure what the COG under controlled circumstances is, is to test for it, since it can vary with fuel tank fill, operator weight, attachments, etc.). Given these units don't come with ROPS or seatbelts and padding, I'd want to go even more conservatively. But you can workaround it by traveling in a more up-and-down fashion than directly sideways - just make sure your equalizer spring mounts are secure so that to tip fore-and-aft, it would also need to pick up the tracks. My great-uncle was killed in a sidehill rollover that was, like most incidents, avoidable.
Like Clint Eastwood said "Mans got to know his limitations"
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Sat, May 19, 2018 11:31 PM
rturn3060
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Reply to Rome K/G:
Like Clint Eastwood said "Mans got to know his limitations"
The scientific approach won't help you if something unexpected happens, like the upper track grosser turns up a rock and pulls it under the track. Your reaction time in reaching for the clutch will probably be too late. With erosion issues I am sure going strait up and down is not what you would want to do. My suggestion would be to take it slow to start with while keeping your hand on the clutch and paying attention to the bubble in your butt.
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Sat, May 19, 2018 11:51 PM
dpendzic
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Reply to rturn3060:
The scientific approach won't help you if something unexpected happens, like the upper track grosser turns up a rock and pulls it under the track. Your reaction time in reaching for the clutch will probably be too late. With erosion issues I am sure going strait up and down is not what you would want to do. My suggestion would be to take it slow to start with while keeping your hand on the clutch and paying attention to the bubble in your butt.
if it has a fender tank keep that on the uphill side--ballast there will help too---whatever slope you were on where you slid would be my personal limitation on steepness
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Sun, May 20, 2018 12:26 AM
TOGNOT
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Reply to dpendzic:
if it has a fender tank keep that on the uphill side--ballast there will help too---whatever slope you were on where you slid would be my personal limitation on steepness
It has been my experience a disc will work better when going up or down a hill, rather than sideways.

Maybe you can't always do that. I would think there is less wear on the rails and rollers going up and down rather than sideways - but I have no data to back that up.
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Sun, May 20, 2018 5:14 AM
Deas Plant.
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Reply to TOGNOT:
It has been my experience a disc will work better when going up or down a hill, rather than sideways.

Maybe you can't always do that. I would think there is less wear on the rails and rollers going up and down rather than sideways - but I have no data to back that up.
Hi, Silverstreak.
I think that while Neil's CoG formula may be technically correct, it is not one that I would be happy with 'cos it ignores the weight of the top part of the engine, radiator and firewall and a fender-mounted fuel tank if that is what you have. My own personal formula would be if the top of the hood got near to over the center of the lower track, it would be time to wonder if my life insurance was paid up to date.

I have personally had a Cat D9N dozer with semi-U blade and rear ripper on a measured 43 degree slope and it was still driving on the high track 'cos I could turn downhill still going forward from that position. And not once but twice. It is not something that I recommend doing for either great peace of mind or longevity but, to my mind at least, it put to rest the belief held by a lot of operators that the high-sprocket drive dozers are less stable than the oval tracked machines.

I was told back in early 1965 by the man who gave me the only little formal training that I ever had on dozers that most tracked machines, dozer and loaders, will slide before they will roll. BUTTT, that in itself poses a hazard if the lower track digs in and stops the slide. See attached photo.

[attachment=48766]Cat D9R dozer onna lean_1_PI.jpg[/attachment]

What size do you the 'twist-top' shaped mark on that seat would have been?

Just my 0.02.
Attachment
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Sun, May 20, 2018 10:30 PM
Hillbillybjopkr
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Reply to Deas Plant.:
Hi, Silverstreak.
I think that while Neil's CoG formula may be technically correct, it is not one that I would be happy with 'cos it ignores the weight of the top part of the engine, radiator and firewall and a fender-mounted fuel tank if that is what you have. My own personal formula would be if the top of the hood got near to over the center of the lower track, it would be time to wonder if my life insurance was paid up to date.

I have personally had a Cat D9N dozer with semi-U blade and rear ripper on a measured 43 degree slope and it was still driving on the high track 'cos I could turn downhill still going forward from that position. And not once but twice. It is not something that I recommend doing for either great peace of mind or longevity but, to my mind at least, it put to rest the belief held by a lot of operators that the high-sprocket drive dozers are less stable than the oval tracked machines.

I was told back in early 1965 by the man who gave me the only little formal training that I ever had on dozers that most tracked machines, dozer and loaders, will slide before they will roll. BUTTT, that in itself poses a hazard if the lower track digs in and stops the slide. See attached photo.

[attachment=48766]Cat D9R dozer onna lean_1_PI.jpg[/attachment]

What size do you the 'twist-top' shaped mark on that seat would have been?

Just my 0.02.
Attachment
if your on your side...that's too far lol.....back in my youngers years when I was runnin cat in the woods skiddin logs...I laid a couple over.....also laid a Delimber over....but that's a different story....unless you have some kind of ROPS....I wouldn't even attempt to side hill....
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Sun, May 20, 2018 11:57 PM
greengiant
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Reply to Hillbillybjopkr:
if your on your side...that's too far lol.....back in my youngers years when I was runnin cat in the woods skiddin logs...I laid a couple over.....also laid a Delimber over....but that's a different story....unless you have some kind of ROPS....I wouldn't even attempt to side hill....
my first job out of high school was harvesting peas for Green Giant in eastern Wash. they grew peas on hills too steep to grow wheat. I ran a D6 pulling a loader that picked up the rows of swathed peas and funneled them into a truck driving alongside. The truck was chained to the cat. it was the "loader boy's" job to hook and unhook the chain. the theory was that the hillsides were too steep for the truck but not for the cat. but I never encountered a hill so steep that the chain actually stopped a truck from tipping so I never got to test that theory.
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Mon, May 21, 2018 2:05 AM
neil
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Reply to Deas Plant.:
Hi, Silverstreak.
I think that while Neil's CoG formula may be technically correct, it is not one that I would be happy with 'cos it ignores the weight of the top part of the engine, radiator and firewall and a fender-mounted fuel tank if that is what you have. My own personal formula would be if the top of the hood got near to over the center of the lower track, it would be time to wonder if my life insurance was paid up to date.

I have personally had a Cat D9N dozer with semi-U blade and rear ripper on a measured 43 degree slope and it was still driving on the high track 'cos I could turn downhill still going forward from that position. And not once but twice. It is not something that I recommend doing for either great peace of mind or longevity but, to my mind at least, it put to rest the belief held by a lot of operators that the high-sprocket drive dozers are less stable than the oval tracked machines.

I was told back in early 1965 by the man who gave me the only little formal training that I ever had on dozers that most tracked machines, dozer and loaders, will slide before they will roll. BUTTT, that in itself poses a hazard if the lower track digs in and stops the slide. See attached photo.

[attachment=48766]Cat D9R dozer onna lean_1_PI.jpg[/attachment]

What size do you the 'twist-top' shaped mark on that seat would have been?

Just my 0.02.
Attachment
[quote="Deas Plant."]Hi, Silverstreak.
I think that while Neil's CoG formula may be technically correct, it is not one that I would be happy with 'cos it ignores the weight of the top part of the engine, radiator and firewall and a fender-mounted fuel tank if that is what you have[/quote]
Without nitpicking over formulae, the ultimate shortcoming is that it can't in any practical terms take into account changing conditions underfoot like you observed Silverstreak. But it will at least tell you what the maximum best-condition angle would be so you'd know that you'd be pushing it if you got close to that angle. At the end of the day, you need to come home in one piece. So the only rule of thumb I could offer is to be conservative, which would include going up the less-steep parts and down the steeper parts, versus sidehill or up the steeper parts. If you have to take a few more passes to get it done without incident, then that's a good outcome. I know I do, and would guess most folks would, feel nervous well before a critical threshold is met so if your internal alarm is going off, that's good because you'll react to it and perhaps operate a little less close to the edge

(To answer your first question, "too steep" is when you have an incident, but you already knew that...)
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Mon, May 21, 2018 2:31 AM
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