ACMOC
Login
ACMOC
Pony motor trouble

Pony motor trouble

Showing 1 to 10 of 13 results
1
Rat-den
Topic Author
Offline
Send a private message to Rat-den
Posts: 11
Thank you received: 0
I have this d7 17a with a hand crank pony motor that is very hard to start. Timing is fine, compression is fine, carb has been stripped and cleaned and put back together, no air suction leaks, fuel is clean. Spark isn’t an issue, air filter has been cleaned but the engine behaves the same with no filter anyway. It rarely starts and when it does sometimes I’ve run it dry by turning off the fuel and sometimes it will just stop running on its own at varying durations. I’ve tried different settings with the adjustment screws and it doesn’t make a difference. Even with them wound in it might start but then it won’t start a second time. It’s got the zenith updraft carb 261-8. If I take the carb off after cranking it maybe 5 times it’ll be wet where it mounts onto the pony motor, no fuel in cylinders though. After drying it all out it’s still hard to start, unless I leave it for over a day and it’s started on first crank a couple of times after leaving it that long. I’ve tried filling the bowl then turning the fuel off and that makes no difference. Needle valve seems to be working fine but sometimes the floats get stuck down but a knock on the side fixes it. It’s got to be a mixture issue. Any ideas on what to try would be appreciated, thanks 
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Sun, Oct 20, 2024 4:05 PM
seiscat
Offline
Send a private message to seiscat
Posts: 1,319
Thank you received: 0
It's difficult for me to determine the reason for your trouble by your description. I do know you should ALWAYS shut the pony off by closing the fuel valve.
The Operation and Maintenance Instructions(OMI) contains much useful info.  There is a copy in the ACMOC library + more 17A info but you need to be a paying member to access them. I have included a page of the OMI.
Craig
I found these on eBay depending on your S/N:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/205037316587

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195852051068

 [attachment=77936]IMG_20240105_0009.jpg[/attachment]





 
Attachment
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Sun, Oct 20, 2024 8:55 PM
neil
Offline
Moderator
Admin
Send a private message to neil
Posts: 6,933
Thank you received: 4
Reply to seiscat:
It's difficult for me to determine the reason for your trouble by your description. I do know you should ALWAYS shut the pony off by closing the fuel valve.
The Operation and Maintenance Instructions(OMI) contains much useful info.  There is a copy in the ACMOC library + more 17A info but you need to be a paying member to access them. I have included a page of the OMI.
Craig
I found these on eBay depending on your S/N:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/205037316587

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195852051068

 [attachment=77936]IMG_20240105_0009.jpg[/attachment]





 
Attachment
Couple of thoughts
- inability to tune using the mixture screws sometimes indicates air leaks. I know you said you've checked but I'd be inclined to perform a controlled leak check by sealing up the carb in various ways and doing a vacuum test using a hand pump. One source of leaks that's sometimes overlooked is the throttle and choke shafts (more so the former
- also can be due to incorrect fuel bowl level
- overfull crankcase. This happened on my buddy's HT4 - it would not start at all until I removed the oil fill cap, and then it started right up. It was overfull and was causing excessive pressure "bucking" preventing the carb from functioning correctly. It was overfull due to the float valve not shutting off, but any over-full state will have the same end result. We drained the contaminated oil, refilled to the correct level, replaced the fill cap, and confirmed that it would start right up again.
Check the level as well as confirming that the dipstick is the correct one for that engine. If you can post the approximate level in the crankcase referring to, say the bottom surface up to the oil level, someone on here can tell you if that sounds right, as a way of verifying that your dipstick is correct
- some other condition preventing mixture reaching the cylinders - check by putting a small amount of fuel directly in the cylinder, replacing the plug and checking if it will fire. I've seen rags jammed in the intake manifold and in the exhaust manifold preventing running
- spark plugs that will spark in the open air but not under compression -
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Sun, Oct 20, 2024 9:14 PM
seiscat
Offline
Send a private message to seiscat
Posts: 1,319
Thank you received: 0
Reply to neil:
Couple of thoughts
- inability to tune using the mixture screws sometimes indicates air leaks. I know you said you've checked but I'd be inclined to perform a controlled leak check by sealing up the carb in various ways and doing a vacuum test using a hand pump. One source of leaks that's sometimes overlooked is the throttle and choke shafts (more so the former
- also can be due to incorrect fuel bowl level
- overfull crankcase. This happened on my buddy's HT4 - it would not start at all until I removed the oil fill cap, and then it started right up. It was overfull and was causing excessive pressure "bucking" preventing the carb from functioning correctly. It was overfull due to the float valve not shutting off, but any over-full state will have the same end result. We drained the contaminated oil, refilled to the correct level, replaced the fill cap, and confirmed that it would start right up again.
Check the level as well as confirming that the dipstick is the correct one for that engine. If you can post the approximate level in the crankcase referring to, say the bottom surface up to the oil level, someone on here can tell you if that sounds right, as a way of verifying that your dipstick is correct
- some other condition preventing mixture reaching the cylinders - check by putting a small amount of fuel directly in the cylinder, replacing the plug and checking if it will fire. I've seen rags jammed in the intake manifold and in the exhaust manifold preventing running
- spark plugs that will spark in the open air but not under compression -
I think you might have a combination of problems. Spark plugs that have been repeatedly soaked with raw gasoline are suspect even if they look okay. If the tractor has been operated after the pony has been improperly shut off with the mag switch the pony oil is diluted with gas and should be changed.
I took a look at the D7C/D (17As) Service Manual in the ACMOC library and spotted several things.
How long has it been since you checked the pony valve clearance? The valves may not be opening fully and contributing to or compounding the problem. here is another OMI  page.
Craig

 [attachment=77937]IMG_20240105_0048.jpg[/attachment]
 
Attachment
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Sun, Oct 20, 2024 10:30 PM
Rat-den
Topic Author
Offline
Send a private message to Rat-den
Posts: 11
Thank you received: 0
Reply to neil:
Couple of thoughts
- inability to tune using the mixture screws sometimes indicates air leaks. I know you said you've checked but I'd be inclined to perform a controlled leak check by sealing up the carb in various ways and doing a vacuum test using a hand pump. One source of leaks that's sometimes overlooked is the throttle and choke shafts (more so the former
- also can be due to incorrect fuel bowl level
- overfull crankcase. This happened on my buddy's HT4 - it would not start at all until I removed the oil fill cap, and then it started right up. It was overfull and was causing excessive pressure "bucking" preventing the carb from functioning correctly. It was overfull due to the float valve not shutting off, but any over-full state will have the same end result. We drained the contaminated oil, refilled to the correct level, replaced the fill cap, and confirmed that it would start right up again.
Check the level as well as confirming that the dipstick is the correct one for that engine. If you can post the approximate level in the crankcase referring to, say the bottom surface up to the oil level, someone on here can tell you if that sounds right, as a way of verifying that your dipstick is correct
- some other condition preventing mixture reaching the cylinders - check by putting a small amount of fuel directly in the cylinder, replacing the plug and checking if it will fire. I've seen rags jammed in the intake manifold and in the exhaust manifold preventing running
- spark plugs that will spark in the open air but not under compression -
I’ve replaced the seals on the shafts in the carb, I could pull it off for a vacuum test though. These spark plugs are new and I’ve tried spraying a bit of ether in the cylinders which didn’t ignite the engine. Not 100% sure if this is the original dipstick for the engine but I’ve put in the amount of oil the manual says to put in
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Mon, Oct 21, 2024 12:58 AM
Rat-den
Topic Author
Offline
Send a private message to Rat-den
Posts: 11
Thank you received: 0
Reply to seiscat:
I think you might have a combination of problems. Spark plugs that have been repeatedly soaked with raw gasoline are suspect even if they look okay. If the tractor has been operated after the pony has been improperly shut off with the mag switch the pony oil is diluted with gas and should be changed.
I took a look at the D7C/D (17As) Service Manual in the ACMOC library and spotted several things.
How long has it been since you checked the pony valve clearance? The valves may not be opening fully and contributing to or compounding the problem. here is another OMI  page.
Craig

 [attachment=77937]IMG_20240105_0048.jpg[/attachment]
 
Attachment
I did the valve clearances a while ago and it has not run for more than a few minutes since. I’ll check them again though. I changed the oil recently too and it smelled like petrol
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Mon, Oct 21, 2024 1:13 AM
Mike Meyer
Offline
Member
Send a private message to Mike Meyer
Posts: 3,324
Thank you received: 1
Reply to Rat-den:
I did the valve clearances a while ago and it has not run for more than a few minutes since. I’ll check them again though. I changed the oil recently too and it smelled like petrol
I would try and find another good magneto, and swap it in to try, it is possible the coil in yours is breaking down. Even if you see sparks jumping with plugs sitting outside the engine when you are cranking it, those same plugs will often not be working when put under compression, or heat.
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Mon, Oct 21, 2024 1:44 AM
neil
Offline
Moderator
Admin
Send a private message to neil
Posts: 6,933
Thank you received: 4
Reply to Mike Meyer:
I would try and find another good magneto, and swap it in to try, it is possible the coil in yours is breaking down. Even if you see sparks jumping with plugs sitting outside the engine when you are cranking it, those same plugs will often not be working when put under compression, or heat.
If you've sprayed ether in and it didn't fire, then ignition is a problem (perhaps not the only problem but any amount of spark, no matter how weak, should ignite a charge of ether and air. Do it a few times - remove the carb entirely, spray a shot of ether in the intake and try starting it - if it doesn't even fire, then you have an ignition problem if your compressions are halfway decent
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Mon, Oct 21, 2024 5:54 AM
Busso20
Offline
Member
Send a private message to Busso20
Posts: 182
Thank you received: 1
Reply to neil:
If you've sprayed ether in and it didn't fire, then ignition is a problem (perhaps not the only problem but any amount of spark, no matter how weak, should ignite a charge of ether and air. Do it a few times - remove the carb entirely, spray a shot of ether in the intake and try starting it - if it doesn't even fire, then you have an ignition problem if your compressions are halfway decent
In my D2 pony I found the contacts with scale, I changed all I could get my hands on (new parts that is) would run cough stop, rev up or idle then stop, similar issue run good for a short time then stop, not start again, leave a while and off it would go then stop, I pulled the old condenser out my collection of replaced items, cleaned it check wire terminal etc and fitted it, well off it went no dramas, 2 or 3 pulls and away it goes no matter if warm or cold, yes quality made over 50 years ago still shows, I did remove and clean the carby 3 times
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Mon, Oct 21, 2024 10:34 AM
Rat-den
Topic Author
Offline
Send a private message to Rat-den
Posts: 11
Thank you received: 0
This is the magneto here, does anyone think there might be a reason why someone has soldered the wire onto the condenser? I’m going to give this whole thing a clean at least
Attachment
Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Tue, Oct 22, 2024 1:03 PM
trainzkid88
Offline
Member
Send a private message to trainzkid88
Location: b.berg qld
Posts: 2,246
Thank you received: 25
Reply to Rat-den:
This is the magneto here, does anyone think there might be a reason why someone has soldered the wire onto the condenser? I’m going to give this whole thing a clean at least
Attachment
it probably broke off.i would fit a new condenser. not expensive and its often a problem. clean up the points and dress with a points file.

magnetos need a good clean return path via the engine castings to work properly.
clean all the mating faces with contact cleaner or methylated spirits.
rub them with no2b pencil the graphite will help conductivity. only get it on the mating faces.
new plug wire are also a good idea. need proper tinned copper plug wire not silicone suppression.

"i reject your reality and substitute my own" - adam savage. i suspect my final words maybe "well shit, that didnt work"

instead of perfection some times we just have to accept practicality

Please log in or create an account to join the conversation.
Tue, Oct 22, 2024 1:50 PM
Showing 1 to 10 of 13 results
1
YouTube Video Placeholder

Follow Us on Social Media

Our channel highlights machines from the earliest Holt and Best track-type tractors, equipment from the start of Caterpillar in 1925, up to units built in the mid-1960s.

Upcoming Events

Wheatlands Warracknabeal Easter Rally

Chapter Nineteen

| 34 Henty Hwy, Warracknabeal

Veerkamp Open House 2025

Chapter Fifteen

| Placerville, CA

Stradsett Park Vintage Rally

Chapter Two

| Stradsett, Nr Downham Market. Norfolk PE33 9HA UK
View Calendar
ACMOC

Antique Caterpillar
Machinery Owners Club

1115 Madison St NE # 1117
Salem, OR 97301

[email protected]

Terms & Privacy
Website developed by AdCo

Testimonials

"I became a member recently because the wealth of knowledge here is priceless." 
-Chris R

Join Today!