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Need help saving DW-10

Need help saving DW-10

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D8PETE
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I'm working on a neighbor's DW-10 w/D318 which has been sitting over 15 years and probably hasn't been started in 10 or more. When I first started working on the machine I couldn't turn the engine over. I took one of the bottom side panels off the engine and the lower part seemed to look good and had an oil film on it. I removed the valve covers and the top end looked good and I was able to move all the valves. I must first explain that most of the pony is still in place but someone at sometime removed the pony crank and flywheel and installed an electric starter motor inside the pony - very crude but it does the job. I tried to use this to spin the engine without the compression but no go. I removed the exhaust manifold and poured diesel fuel down the exhaust ports. I let the engine set overnight and the next day started to work the engine back and forth using a bar prying on the clutch/ flywheel assembly. I was able to get about a 1/8 of a turn on the flywheel and the owner told me to try the electric starter again. I first checked to make sure the rack was free, it needed a little help and when I engaged the starter the engine rolled right over. I tried to start it but no go. It appeared I had a fuel pressure/flow problem which after disassembling the fuel lines, transfer pump, tower, fuel filters and cleaning I just decided to pressurize the fuel tank and worry about the transfer pump later. I bled the system and got fuel up to the injectors but still no go, no smoke at all. I then discovered that the rack had become stuck. Two of the fuel pumps were the culprits as i removed them, exercised them, and reinstalled them and then the rack moved freely, but still no go and no smoke. I removed three injectors and hooked them up outside the engine to see their spray pattern and at first I got nothing, then a spray, then a stream. From what I remember reading I thought I should see a nice spray/mist. One injector seems decent but the other two just shoot straight streams. My dilema at this time is do I buy a new set of nozzles? I don't know how to diagnose if the problem is somehow due to the nozzles, or are the fuel pumps worn beyond specs - whatever they may be. Is it the 15 year old fuel or is it a compression problem. The owner said he used to start the engine every few years when he first got the machine and it always started right up, this is what concerns me is why now am I having so much difficulty. Any ideas would be appreciated. Just as a side note I'm a diehard pony supporter and trying to diagnose a large engine which has fuel system problems is a real pain! The batteries just don't cut it. I'll keep my pony engines! :noidea:
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Sun, Oct 17, 2010 5:49 AM
Old Magnet
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Nothing you can do about the capsule nozzles, either they work or they don't. You will need to clean up the fuel system or you may be facing the same drill with new nozzles. Spray should be a defined cone shaped mist.

You mentioned checking the injection pumps...but also make sure the lifters are not sticking. If the rings/liners have rusted up compression is going to be an issue.

If it ran when parked before, it should run again....but we've all heard that one LOL.
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Sun, Oct 17, 2010 6:06 AM
D8PETE
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Nothing you can do about the capsule nozzles, either they work or they don't. You will need to clean up the fuel system or you may be facing the same drill with new nozzles. Spray should be a defined cone shaped mist.

You mentioned checking the injection pumps...but also make sure the lifters are not sticking. If the rings/liners have rusted up compression is going to be an issue.

If it ran when parked before, it should run again....but we've all heard that one LOL.
Hello Old Magnet - I was hoping you would see this post and I was in luck! I guess I'll have to look into capsules. I know you mentioned to some others with dirty fuel systems about checking/cleaning the screens in the capsules. When I checked the 3, they had a little bit of debris but were pretty clean for the most part. Am I safe to assume that if whatever goes through the capsule screen will go through the nozzle safely? Is there a way to check individual fuel pumps? I have resurrected cats that have set longer and had less love but am a little stumped why this one is being so stubborn. There must be a reason, I'll just have to stay at it.
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Sun, Oct 17, 2010 7:11 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to D8PETE:
Hello Old Magnet - I was hoping you would see this post and I was in luck! I guess I'll have to look into capsules. I know you mentioned to some others with dirty fuel systems about checking/cleaning the screens in the capsules. When I checked the 3, they had a little bit of debris but were pretty clean for the most part. Am I safe to assume that if whatever goes through the capsule screen will go through the nozzle safely? Is there a way to check individual fuel pumps? I have resurrected cats that have set longer and had less love but am a little stumped why this one is being so stubborn. There must be a reason, I'll just have to stay at it.
Not a safe assumption that what goes through the screen will pass on through. Still have a check valve and atomizing valve downstream. New ones are available for about $15.00 ea. so not even worth the cost to test them.

Pumps can be checked but that's fuel injection shop territory. Best you can do is move them around to see if symptoms follow
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Sun, Oct 17, 2010 8:35 AM
Mike Walsh
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Reply to D8PETE:
Hello Old Magnet - I was hoping you would see this post and I was in luck! I guess I'll have to look into capsules. I know you mentioned to some others with dirty fuel systems about checking/cleaning the screens in the capsules. When I checked the 3, they had a little bit of debris but were pretty clean for the most part. Am I safe to assume that if whatever goes through the capsule screen will go through the nozzle safely? Is there a way to check individual fuel pumps? I have resurrected cats that have set longer and had less love but am a little stumped why this one is being so stubborn. There must be a reason, I'll just have to stay at it.
Cat nozzles were $50 apiece a year ago. Not sure today. I was taught not to buy aftermarket; when you compare Cat to aftermarket you can see the difference in spray pattern. Not worth the risk of wash down.

If you want to cheat for a while, you can bypass the fuel tank and feed it fuel out of a can with an electric fuel pump. If your transfer pump isn't working you can avoid dealing with it.

There is a good chance your rings are stuck. I mentioned once before using Marvels Mystery oil and no one said anything. I was introduced to it by an old mechanic friend of mine and it saved me from tearing down an engine. Use it regularly in the fuel now and never had another problem with that engine. Problem is you have to get that 10 running first. Don't know if inserting some MMO through injector will do you any good but worth a try if the injectors are already out.

Is your compression release closing completely. Sometimes they stick.

If you can get fuel to the nozzle it should fire if you can keep it spinning. Harder to do without a running pony. May need a push cat. Hope you get it going. My uncle had a DW10 and 20 when I was a kid. He'd never let me run the 20 because the brakes were bad but the 10 sure was fun. Those were the days.
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Sun, Oct 17, 2010 8:50 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to Mike Walsh:
Cat nozzles were $50 apiece a year ago. Not sure today. I was taught not to buy aftermarket; when you compare Cat to aftermarket you can see the difference in spray pattern. Not worth the risk of wash down.

If you want to cheat for a while, you can bypass the fuel tank and feed it fuel out of a can with an electric fuel pump. If your transfer pump isn't working you can avoid dealing with it.

There is a good chance your rings are stuck. I mentioned once before using Marvels Mystery oil and no one said anything. I was introduced to it by an old mechanic friend of mine and it saved me from tearing down an engine. Use it regularly in the fuel now and never had another problem with that engine. Problem is you have to get that 10 running first. Don't know if inserting some MMO through injector will do you any good but worth a try if the injectors are already out.

Is your compression release closing completely. Sometimes they stick.

If you can get fuel to the nozzle it should fire if you can keep it spinning. Harder to do without a running pony. May need a push cat. Hope you get it going. My uncle had a DW10 and 20 when I was a kid. He'd never let me run the 20 because the brakes were bad but the 10 sure was fun. Those were the days.
On pressurizing the tank, remember that what flow you get is passing through the clearances of the transfer pump....works fine for slow bleeding but not adequate to replace the 15psi transfer pump and starting is known to get iffy down around 5-7psi. Don't put but about 2-3 psi psi on the tank unless you want the ballooned version.
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Sun, Oct 17, 2010 9:15 AM
D8PETE
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Reply to Mike Walsh:
Cat nozzles were $50 apiece a year ago. Not sure today. I was taught not to buy aftermarket; when you compare Cat to aftermarket you can see the difference in spray pattern. Not worth the risk of wash down.

If you want to cheat for a while, you can bypass the fuel tank and feed it fuel out of a can with an electric fuel pump. If your transfer pump isn't working you can avoid dealing with it.

There is a good chance your rings are stuck. I mentioned once before using Marvels Mystery oil and no one said anything. I was introduced to it by an old mechanic friend of mine and it saved me from tearing down an engine. Use it regularly in the fuel now and never had another problem with that engine. Problem is you have to get that 10 running first. Don't know if inserting some MMO through injector will do you any good but worth a try if the injectors are already out.

Is your compression release closing completely. Sometimes they stick.

If you can get fuel to the nozzle it should fire if you can keep it spinning. Harder to do without a running pony. May need a push cat. Hope you get it going. My uncle had a DW10 and 20 when I was a kid. He'd never let me run the 20 because the brakes were bad but the 10 sure was fun. Those were the days.
Mike - When I rebuilt my D2 a few years ago I installed aftermarket nozzles and when I started it for the first time it ran rough and had a slight miss. Al Smith told me to always use CAT nozzles as he had some bad experiences with aftermarket units. I installed 4 new Cat nozzles and the engine ran perfectly. I threw the aftermarkets in the scrap bin. I am getting fuel to the nozzles, just don't seem to have the correct pattern. My concern now is that even with starting fluid I can't get the machine to make any smoke or fire whatsoever. I fear I have a compression problem of some sort. I was hoping to get the machine out of its present location under its own power but its not looking good at this point. Like Old Magnet said we have all heard before " it was running fine when we parked it a couple years ago" and usually it turns out to be a couple of decades! It wouldn't be any fun if they just started right up. At least thats what I keep telling myself.
Old Magnet - maybe I shouldn't say this but I got between 15 and 20 psi going to the tank and my fuel pressure gauge is up in the green. I did this with much caution as I could see the tank metal expand slightly, plus the tank is full of fuel.
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Sun, Oct 17, 2010 9:37 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to D8PETE:
Mike - When I rebuilt my D2 a few years ago I installed aftermarket nozzles and when I started it for the first time it ran rough and had a slight miss. Al Smith told me to always use CAT nozzles as he had some bad experiences with aftermarket units. I installed 4 new Cat nozzles and the engine ran perfectly. I threw the aftermarkets in the scrap bin. I am getting fuel to the nozzles, just don't seem to have the correct pattern. My concern now is that even with starting fluid I can't get the machine to make any smoke or fire whatsoever. I fear I have a compression problem of some sort. I was hoping to get the machine out of its present location under its own power but its not looking good at this point. Like Old Magnet said we have all heard before " it was running fine when we parked it a couple years ago" and usually it turns out to be a couple of decades! It wouldn't be any fun if they just started right up. At least thats what I keep telling myself.
Old Magnet - maybe I shouldn't say this but I got between 15 and 20 psi going to the tank and my fuel pressure gauge is up in the green. I did this with much caution as I could see the tank metal expand slightly, plus the tank is full of fuel.
You may be getting pressure but you need fuel volume also to maintain a spray pattern.
Has this thing still got its pony exhaust heat exchanger? Try adding some heat with a propane torch.

PS, I've been running aftermarket nozzles and others have been running the DPAUSA pumps for years without problems and I know I've recommended them to other users on here.
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Sun, Oct 17, 2010 12:10 PM
Mike Walsh
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Reply to Old Magnet:
You may be getting pressure but you need fuel volume also to maintain a spray pattern.
Has this thing still got its pony exhaust heat exchanger? Try adding some heat with a propane torch.

PS, I've been running aftermarket nozzles and others have been running the DPAUSA pumps for years without problems and I know I've recommended them to other users on here.
OM. I'm being lazy this morning. Do you have a link to the aftermarket brand nozzle and pump you use. I'm pretty sure Cat doesn't make theirs so maybe you've found the manufacturer they resell.
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Sun, Oct 17, 2010 11:49 PM
Old Magnet
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Reply to Mike Walsh:
OM. I'm being lazy this morning. Do you have a link to the aftermarket brand nozzle and pump you use. I'm pretty sure Cat doesn't make theirs so maybe you've found the manufacturer they resell.
The site is www.DPAUSA.com but you need to know the latest superceeded numbers for their products. For the D315/D318 the capsules are #6H3364. Pumps are an 8M9578. They have other pumps including the older D3400, D4400, D4600, D13000, D8800, etc. Pumps are about $90 ea, capsules $15. Your more than welcome to give your money to FatCat but at those prices you can afford spares.
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Mon, Oct 18, 2010 1:18 AM
Mike Walsh
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Reply to Old Magnet:
The site is www.DPAUSA.com but you need to know the latest superceeded numbers for their products. For the D315/D318 the capsules are #6H3364. Pumps are an 8M9578. They have other pumps including the older D3400, D4400, D4600, D13000, D8800, etc. Pumps are about $90 ea, capsules $15. Your more than welcome to give your money to FatCat but at those prices you can afford spares.
These things are made in USA, wherever that is. How can they possibly be as good as the foreign stuff.
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Mon, Oct 18, 2010 1:36 AM
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