More questions on the old 225, 51U. Track not acting right and swing system

A photo of the sprocket would help, it could be the drive motor or pump but it sounds to me as if the track is climbing over the sprocket tips.
How much slack is there in the swing bearing? If this is too bad, there is no point in doing work on the swing gearbox and pinion. I have also known of problems in the swing caused by the spool valve centring springs being broken and make up valves not sealing properly.

I forgot a pic of the track links but basically, we replaced some lower rollers with some from an old D4. The outside flanges are taller but I figured they would help it track better. It looks like the rollers are making pretty contact with the links in some places, enough to leave the steel bright and fresh and some metal sheared back a but. These contact areas certainly stand out as more than normal contact.

I measured the link width at 5.75" and the opening in the rollers is 6.0" but apparently it wants a little more room.

Now, I have NO idea if this is really what is causing the track issue because since the track motor was loose with visible oil gushing, I pulled the motor to discover that funk has gotten into the brake and the brake is the gusher, not the motor. AND, that channel area up there has held water or something and got water into my final drive box. Picture of the wonderful oil that was OVER filled in the gear box. I am not sure I would immediately say the final drive is hammered since hoes don't really do much wondering around or heavily loaded like dozers.

Looks like the brake on the other side is doing the same. Bleeding oil into the final drive. They were both over full. Both brakes still function though. Not sure if the one that is bleeding bad could be causing all that track issues or not.


On the swing problem, I included a pic. I basically try to start motion and then slowing give more stick. You can see it starts smooth but just takes off. A little dangerous in certain situations.

I looked at the lash in the swing and with everything fully extended, it is a bit less than 1ft of play. I think I am seeing mostly a combination of play in all the pivot pins, the bucket, etc. Everything is a little sloppy....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uE0MQBCVf0&feature=youtu.be

I forgot a pic of the track links but basically, we replaced some lower rollers with some from an old D4. The outside flanges are taller but I figured they would help it track better. It looks like the rollers are making pretty contact with the links in some places, enough to leave the steel bright and fresh and some metal sheared back a but. These contact areas certainly stand out as more than normal contact.

I measured the link width at 5.75" and the opening in the rollers is 6.0" but apparently it wants a little more room.

Now, I have NO idea if this is really what is causing the track issue because since the track motor was loose with visible oil gushing, I pulled the motor to discover that funk has gotten into the brake and the brake is the gusher, not the motor. AND, that channel area up there has held water or something and got water into my final drive box. Picture of the wonderful oil that was OVER filled in the gear box. I am not sure I would immediately say the final drive is hammered since hoes don't really do much wondering around or heavily loaded like dozers.

Looks like the brake on the other side is doing the same. Bleeding oil into the final drive. They were both over full. Both brakes still function though. Not sure if the one that is bleeding bad could be causing all that track issues or not.


On the swing problem, I included a pic. I basically try to start motion and then slowing give more stick. You can see it starts smooth but just takes off. A little dangerous in certain situations.

I looked at the lash in the swing and with everything fully extended, it is a bit less than 1ft of play. I think I am seeing mostly a combination of play in all the pivot pins, the bucket, etc. Everything is a little sloppy....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uE0MQBCVf0&feature=youtu.be

Looks like your youtube video is set to private - can't view it

https://youtu.be/5uE0MQBCVf0

Lets try this one.


On the swing, If I let go of the control while at full swing, you can feel oil pressure bring it to a stop but it does not exactly come to a nice stop. I realize though that all the play in everything is probably exaggerating things. Basically the system will start off pretty slow and reasonable, the pop up to full speed and there is a large area of control modulation that does nothing. Swing seems to have 2 speeds, slow and WFO.

On the track brake, there is a pressure release vent that is supposed to be on the brakes and i think it is there to protect things if the finals get too full from a brake failure oil will come out of the vent. However, both of them are missing and looks like dirt in them. The way this machine was treated, I am sure someone hit them with a hammer.

I don't personally think the finals are hammered and causing the glitch in operation. when the track is in the air, it moves fine. Seems consistent with the lower rollers binding things or the extra load is causing something else to show up.

EDIT: I remembered I had some of those D4 rollers and the originals here at the house so I measured them. The inside width is exactly the same! 5.75" which is what the track measures. I would almost call BS on that observation other than the apparent harshly abraded areas on the links that actually moved metal on them.

If it is any help at all, the track issue does seem to be quite a bit worse when operated in reverse as opposed to forward tracking.

Hey Fastline,

I'm not a mechanic. Others can tell you how to check pressures and such. Sounds like a hydraulic tune up is in order. The video isn't alarming to me. First, the machine doesn't work well with out full or close to it Rpm's. Trying to operate it at low Rpm's starves oil flow and creates surges, causing jerky maneuveres. There maybe sticky valves too. A lot of what I saw causing slop is the play in boom and bucket pins. Put some washer shims in the bucket pins to take up slop. Just a little time and a little money for shims at bucket and boom locations will make a huge difference. As for jerky stopping, if I remember 20 years back or so, there should be a toggle switch that will cancel your swing brake if desired. When doing pricision work at times, it's better to release brake and work without it to smooth out your small movements. If your trying to move small amounts and the swing brake is going on and off it can get jerky. Turn it off and try it.
Glen

At this stage, I would be draining the final drives to see what metal comes out and checking the main ring gear bearing for play to assess the possible amount of cash required to keep this machine going before diving into the hydraulics, It is obvious that the brakes or track motors are leaking oil into the cavity between them and the final drives, this would be a reseal job, but what also concerns me is the colour of the oil coming out, is this contamination coming from the final drive, is it right through the hydraulics? Something you need to know to repair the right part.
As for the tracks, why did you have to replace a section, are they worn out? A badly stretched track will ride up the sprocket teeth and cause the problem you have, especially in reverse, that's why I asked for a pic of the sprocket. My track knowledge is not BS, I spent twenty years of my 45 year Cat career measuring and assessing track wear.

Then I have obviously come to the right place! When I got the bird, it was obvious the previous owner left it for dead BUT though many have considered the worse, I worked with Bob here to determine more about the machine The pumps are OK, engine is fantastic, and everything else seems reasonable.

What I have done since getting it
1. Drain/replace all hydro oil but did not flush as I intend to run for a bit, then do it again or put a crash cart on it.
2. Replace every filter and cut all filters open to assess. No abnormal filings
3. Got oil analysis from previous oil. Have to find that. Nothing crazy other than water.
4. Repacked boom cylinders. They were gushers.
5. Replaced Oring on oil tank. Was slopping oil everywhere. Now holds pressure for days.
6. Replaced/welded various other leaks. Stick and bucket cylinders leak a little and will do that later.
7. Replaced all filters/oil in engine. Engine fires right up even in cold. Just touch starter and she runs solid.
8. Reworked pilot controls to get play out of sticks.
9. Replaced most of lower track rollers and one upper and tensioned to 1.25" slack between straight edge of top roller and idler.
10. Through, Bob, we determined the servo in the rear pump is not working right and stayed at min stroke so I plugged the port form pilot pressure to hold it at full stroke. Best I can do right now.

I already have TOO much work into machine.

I can get a pick of the track links. I know there are issues there. Guy was walking around in brick and concrete. Obviously did not care. a CAT rep that I know came out and indicated he has seen MUCH worse and said sprockets and idler have life left. Pads are fine. Links are the issue.

Regarding oil that is coming out. I think some of that is old oil that is purging but I doubt it will look perfect because there was still several gallons of old stuff in system. Again, I ran the motor disconnected and it did not leak but brake was actively flowing. I am sure once warm, it would be much worse.


The links hanging up on the sprocket seems plausible as that feels consistent. It also is much worse in reverse. I will get picks to load up here.

EDIT: Cat, I want to be clear on the oil, the oil in the hydro system does NOT look like what is on the ground from the final! I realized you may be assessing based on that alone. That oil certainly has a large amount of water in it and I strongly believe it is from water sitting in that tray that the motors are in and due to the pump not being sealed against the brake, it got in. I saw water drops that were not on top of the oil coming out.

Hi,
some centre track guiding guards may help stop the snakey worn track walking out of the centre rollers like when some operators do sharp turns on uneven ground.
The damage you see from the high flange D4 roller flanges chopping pieces from the links is the reason Excavator rollers have low flanges to help resist this occurring. The CGG's would assist greatly in keeping the track in place.
Also a few random fitted high flange rollers would concentrate the excavators weight on those few points if out off the track and on the links.

From memory, and by my SEBU5339 (10-75) 225 green Operators Guide Book, I thought, and see these units used a manually applied turn brake controlled by an over centre Grader style Park Brake lever. I stand to be corrected.
Cheers,
Eddie B.