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Model 12 grader wheel nut thread direction / removal

Model 12 grader wheel nut thread direction / removal

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Brian.Hart
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A very basic version of a perennial question here. I just purchased a 1951 Cat Model 12 grader, and the brake cylinders are seized. So I got some tools, including a 38" breaker bar 3/4" socket drive and 3-1/8" socket to fit the hub spindle nuts. I got it up on jack stands and set to work by removing the eight wheel retaining nuts and related hardware, then rolling the rear wheel off each side.

Then I started working on the hub nuts. I bent the anti-turn tabs out and started trying to remove the nut on the left side but could not budge it with the breaker bar and socket (and the breaker bar, or more properly, the swivel that attaches the breaker bar to the 3/4" socket driver) has too much flex for me to trust extending it with a piece of pipe or even put my full weight on it.

So I went over to the right side, and the nut turned right off with the breaker bar & socket. After making a pulling tool using two 5-1/2" 5/8 x 11 grade 5 bolts, washers, and a couple of pieces of rebar and angle iron, I managed to pull off that drum. Getting everything fixed in there is sure to turn out to be another story, but my question here is about the spindle nuts. Are the both RH thread? The one on the right side was, but I have no way of knowing if the ones on the left are RH or LH thread. I even unbent the retaining ring on the front tandem wheel on the left to see if I could determine its thread direction, even though I do not need to remove it to fix the brakes, but it seems to be as tight as the rear LH wheel nut.

So I went out and got a 36" steel pipe wrench that I can extend with a 10" piece of 2" pipe if necessary. But I still cannot tell whether the nuts are RH or LH thread. Sure, I could split the nut, but then I would have to get a new one.

BTW, this grader is what I am using to help out the neighbors by maintaining our 1-1/2 mile long private road. It works fine, but without brakes, putting the blade down or using the parking brake are the only good options for actually stopping, so I have been very hesitant to use it much until I get these brakes fixed.

And while I am at it, any ideas on the brake rebuild? Like the best place to get new aftermarket cylinders if these end up being too deeply pitted or otherwise need to be replaced? And now that I have one drum off (and hopefully the other soon), what else should I replace in there? The shoes themselves have a good quarter inch of lining left. I am being careful to clean this with brake cleaner (don't want any asbestos dust in my lungs!), but I am awfully green when it comes to big equipment like this.
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Mon, Aug 27, 2018 12:24 PM
Deas Plant.
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Hi, Brian.Hart.
RH thread. Have someone give the nut a few good sharp thumps with a FBH while you keep the tension on it with the pipe wrench. OR - reverse the roles if you don't trust anyone to swing a FBH acc'rately.

Those hubs are supposed to be pressed on with a hydraulic press. I don't have the exact pressure but it is substantial and I suspect that somebody will chime in here soon with the figure.

Just my 0.02.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Mon, Aug 27, 2018 4:14 PM
ccjersey
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I agree, go after it with the pipe wrench and cheater pipe. Heating it wouldn't hurt if that doesn't get it pretty easily.

I have had good luck getting brake parts at my local NAPA autoparts. I take the old cylinders in with all casting numbers brushed off and the cups etc out of the inside and they look them up. They have all been standard parts made by brake hardware manufacturers active at the time.

40 tons press fit ........DRY !
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Tue, Aug 28, 2018 12:43 AM
Brian.Hart
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Reply to ccjersey:
I agree, go after it with the pipe wrench and cheater pipe. Heating it wouldn't hurt if that doesn't get it pretty easily.

I have had good luck getting brake parts at my local NAPA autoparts. I take the old cylinders in with all casting numbers brushed off and the cups etc out of the inside and they look them up. They have all been standard parts made by brake hardware manufacturers active at the time.

40 tons press fit ........DRY !
Got it off. In the end, I got a 36" steel pipe wrench. Still could not budge that one nut with my weight and had no long steel pipe around to use as a cheater. So I put a handyman jack under the end of the pipe wrench and jacked away, and that turned that nut before it ever got close to lifting the grader by the pipe wrench.

Now I am working on pulling the drum off the spindle. See the picture of my homemade puller. It is beginning to bend a bit, and it probably would have been better if the angle had been thicker than 3/16". Still, it got the other one off, and I am hopeful it will get this one off as well.

But I am guessing that I will need to replace the cylinders--if/when I can get them off without everything falling to pieces. Lots of brake shoe left, but all the hardware in there is rusted together. I am at least going to have to drill out the cotter pins that hold the shoe retaining clips in place. Both ends of those just snapped off on the first attempt to pull them out.

So lots left to do before I can this thing back on the road. Just the price one pays for buying something that has sat around with unused brakes for too long, I suppose.
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Tue, Aug 28, 2018 4:25 AM
ccjersey
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It SHOULD take more than that to get it off. Before the puller really gives up the ghost, you could try whacking the end of the spindle and see if it might pop off. I had to resort to that trick when I was pulling the one off my 212 with a much more substantial puller. That trick is also used on farm tractor axles that the adjustable tread wheels are frozen up solid. Worst case you might mushroom the end of the spindle a little and need to work on it to get the nut started again.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Tue, Aug 28, 2018 4:40 AM
Deas Plant.
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Reply to ccjersey:
It SHOULD take more than that to get it off. Before the puller really gives up the ghost, you could try whacking the end of the spindle and see if it might pop off. I had to resort to that trick when I was pulling the one off my 212 with a much more substantial puller. That trick is also used on farm tractor axles that the adjustable tread wheels are frozen up solid. Worst case you might mushroom the end of the spindle a little and need to work on it to get the nut started again.
Hi, Brian Hart.
Unless you want to cause yourself a LOTTT of grief down the track, I would suggest having your local Cat dealer or somebody with the necessary equipment come out and press those hubs back on. The reason they are pressed on at that 40 tons pressure is to make sure that they never come loose while working. The nut is NOT there to hold them on but only as an 'insurance policy' if a wheel does come loose to stop it falling completely off.

I sometimes think that it might be better if it did fall completely off 'cos then you would really KNOW about it and it would not be flopping around on there and wearing the axle and hub while you keep working unaware that there is a problem.

Just my 0.02.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Tue, Aug 28, 2018 4:58 AM
janmeermans
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Reply to Deas Plant.:
Hi, Brian Hart.
Unless you want to cause yourself a LOTTT of grief down the track, I would suggest having your local Cat dealer or somebody with the necessary equipment come out and press those hubs back on. The reason they are pressed on at that 40 tons pressure is to make sure that they never come loose while working. The nut is NOT there to hold them on but only as an 'insurance policy' if a wheel does come loose to stop it falling completely off.

I sometimes think that it might be better if it did fall completely off 'cos then you would really KNOW about it and it would not be flopping around on there and wearing the axle and hub while you keep working unaware that there is a problem.

Just my 0.02.
Brian.Hart,

Sprocket71 and I will be doing this to the museum's 1957 71D-219 Cat 12 that we just picked up tires for last week in AZ. We have 4 of the 6 mounted and next time over there will be taking the rear wheels off to do the brakes. We have no idea what we will find inside. We did bring back an almost new master cylinder from AZ. We are in process of fabricating our puller. Our advantage is Sprocket71 retired from the local CAT dealer and hopes the 40ton press and tooling is still in the tool room for him to check out!

Yesterday we were able to give it a pull and she started right up! We were very happy driving it around (without brakes except for the 12 foot one hanging underneath.)

JanM
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Tue, Aug 28, 2018 10:53 PM
Brian.Hart
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Reply to ccjersey:
It SHOULD take more than that to get it off. Before the puller really gives up the ghost, you could try whacking the end of the spindle and see if it might pop off. I had to resort to that trick when I was pulling the one off my 212 with a much more substantial puller. That trick is also used on farm tractor axles that the adjustable tread wheels are frozen up solid. Worst case you might mushroom the end of the spindle a little and need to work on it to get the nut started again.


I should say that that the right side drum did just walk off with the puller bolt torque. I started the whole thing with a 5/8-11 tap to clean the threads in preparation for using the puller, then greased the puller socket (not sure of the correct term there--the female threaded part of the drum where the puller bolts go in) so that every bit of torque put into those puller bolts went toward pulling the drum instead of fighting rust in the threads. Then I tightened up the bolts--with a 38" breaker bar--to the point that I was afraid I would break the bolts, worked my way around the hub with a steel mallet, tried a jack between the hub and the chain case, plenty of Blaster, and lots of pounding on the middle of the puller--direct hits that transfer to the spindle while the bolts are at full pressure. Eventually, I saw it give a bit. After that, I just keep tightening the bolts and working my way around the hub to make sure it came off evenly. I put the nut back on near the end to avoid having it pop off on my feet. But as slowly as it released, I suspect there was not much danger of that.

Now, of course, I have one big rust bucket inside to contend with. Even the cotter pins are all breaking so that I will have to probably drill them out, and it is clear I will have some serious work to do before I can even get the cylinder out to work on them.

And I still have to get the left side drum off; it is resisting my best efforts that eventually got the other side off. I am loathe to do anything that might eventually crack that drum. After all, it is 67 years old. A lot of operators' careers have come and gone in the life of this machine.
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Wed, Aug 29, 2018 12:23 PM
oldbeek
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Reply to janmeermans:
Brian.Hart,

Sprocket71 and I will be doing this to the museum's 1957 71D-219 Cat 12 that we just picked up tires for last week in AZ. We have 4 of the 6 mounted and next time over there will be taking the rear wheels off to do the brakes. We have no idea what we will find inside. We did bring back an almost new master cylinder from AZ. We are in process of fabricating our puller. Our advantage is Sprocket71 retired from the local CAT dealer and hopes the 40ton press and tooling is still in the tool room for him to check out!

Yesterday we were able to give it a pull and she started right up! We were very happy driving it around (without brakes except for the 12 foot one hanging underneath.)

JanM
[quote="janmeermans"]Brian.Hart,

Sprocket71 and I will be doing this to the museum's 1957 71D-219 Cat 12 that we just picked up tires for last week in AZ. We have 4 of the 6 mounted and next time over there will be taking the rear wheels off to do the brakes. We have no idea what we will find inside. We did bring back an almost new master cylinder from AZ. We are in process of fabricating our puller. Our advantage is Sprocket71 retired from the local CAT dealer and hopes the 40ton press and tooling is still in the tool room for him to check out!

Yesterday we were able to give it a pull and she started right up! We were very happy driving it around (without brakes except for the 12 foot one hanging underneath.)

JanM[/quote]

My 12 was sitting for 20 years. It had no brakes. I filled the reservoir and pumped it patiently. It got good brakes. I adjusted them and have watched for leakage at the drums for 2 years now. Don't buy work you don't need.
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Wed, Aug 29, 2018 12:42 PM
BobPV15
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Reply to oldbeek:
[quote="janmeermans"]Brian.Hart,

Sprocket71 and I will be doing this to the museum's 1957 71D-219 Cat 12 that we just picked up tires for last week in AZ. We have 4 of the 6 mounted and next time over there will be taking the rear wheels off to do the brakes. We have no idea what we will find inside. We did bring back an almost new master cylinder from AZ. We are in process of fabricating our puller. Our advantage is Sprocket71 retired from the local CAT dealer and hopes the 40ton press and tooling is still in the tool room for him to check out!

Yesterday we were able to give it a pull and she started right up! We were very happy driving it around (without brakes except for the 12 foot one hanging underneath.)

JanM[/quote]

My 12 was sitting for 20 years. It had no brakes. I filled the reservoir and pumped it patiently. It got good brakes. I adjusted them and have watched for leakage at the drums for 2 years now. Don't buy work you don't need.
My old 12 had no brakes. The master cylinder was rusted solid, but there was fluid at the lines on the chain housings. I replaced the master cylinder and the lines down to the chain housings. I bleed the lines at the chain housings and pesto! I had brakes!! That was a long time ago and they still work. Mine is a 9K model, 1944.
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Wed, Aug 29, 2018 12:54 PM
ccjersey
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Brian Hart, I don't think you need to worry about cracking the hub/cast steel center of the wheel. In fact I would bet you cannot break it if you try!
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Wed, Aug 29, 2018 7:16 PM
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