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Magneto on 3T D7

Magneto on 3T D7

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Duane
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I'm looking at a 3T with intent to purchase.
The seller has told me there were ignition issues with the starting motor, so before even attempting to start it I did a little tinkering, and determined the following.
With both spark plugs removed, a strong spark is delivered to number 1, it seems just a tad past tdc.
For number 2, I judge the spark a bit weaker, but strangely and to my mind mysteriously, way out of time. The spark is delivered way before the compression stroke is completed. WAY EARLY.
I had it running "nicely" on just number one, with number two plug removed, and was watching the spark on number two plug.
I must admit that there are some things going on in a mag that I won't claim to understand, so i speculated perhaps the impulse coupling is performing inconsistently, or something, and that running the engine might give it some needed exercise. The same behavior was observed after running the engine.
Also, the with the spark plugs removed, the snap (of the coupler?) seems to occur at very regular intervals with respect to the crank position.
I have not yet had the courage to try starting it with the number 2 plug installed, as I am quite afraid of the crank when timing is not correct.

I was going to swap with a "ran when parked" unit from another 3T, but it is now refusing to deliver any spark. (It ran when parked, but that may have been 20 years ago) It took me a few hours to get the cap off the non functional mag, due to thread corrosion. My spare is an Eissemann, but I don't know what the other one is. It looks a little different, and without removing it I have not seen a name.

The parts tractor is 3T 6543, and the "new" one is somewhere around the mid 8000 range. I failed to record or memorize the number, but there is no telling if either mag is original.
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 5:28 AM
ccjersey
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You should be able to take out the plugs and then pull it through the 1st compression stroke (#1 ) and then check when the impulse trips in relation to the second compression stroke. I'm calling them first and second because that pony is supposed to be an odd fire design with TDC #1 compression stroke followed a half turn later by #2 and then a full turn and a half before #1 comes back to compression stroke again.

The mag should have two plug wire terminals next to each other on one side of the cap and usually two obviously blanked positions opposite them. An even fire mag for one of those type (rarer) upright/inline ponies that I doubt was ever installed on a 3T, will have two terminals on opposite sides of the cap. I know the caps won't interchange (mistaken attempt) but maybe the whole mag might???
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 6:42 AM
gemdozer
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The d7-3t can use too a AMERICAN BOSCH and a WICO magneto
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 6:46 AM
STEPHEN
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Reply to gemdozer:
The d7-3t can use too a AMERICAN BOSCH and a WICO magneto
If it is an odd fire engine, it can be so badly out of time that one of the times the mag fires, it isn't going to be anywhere close to TDC. Take your cap off and check when the impulse fires, the first time it should be on cyl #1[attachment=55984]15735234667813305562680282918998.jpg[/attachment][attachment=55983]15735233959416744845467749226811.jpg[/attachment]

The first pic, see where the rotor should be just before #1 fires, pointed at the #1 tower.
The second pic see where the cam is on the rubbing block? Cam turns counter clockwise and the next fire is only 90 deg for #2. This mag is the Eisemann RC-2Q.
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 8:26 AM
Andrew
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Reply to STEPHEN:
If it is an odd fire engine, it can be so badly out of time that one of the times the mag fires, it isn't going to be anywhere close to TDC. Take your cap off and check when the impulse fires, the first time it should be on cyl #1[attachment=55984]15735234667813305562680282918998.jpg[/attachment][attachment=55983]15735233959416744845467749226811.jpg[/attachment]

The first pic, see where the rotor should be just before #1 fires, pointed at the #1 tower.
The second pic see where the cam is on the rubbing block? Cam turns counter clockwise and the next fire is only 90 deg for #2. This mag is the Eisemann RC-2Q.
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Just to ad my bit .
I have several of these machines and feel i know the timing set up pretty well. Some good information on previous posts .
First job is to locate the timing marks on the flywheel. Remove the side plate on the flywheel housing and using a paint pen or similar highlight the timing marks on the flywheel for easier reference. Turn the engine over slowly with plugs removed as you have done . With a finger over no 1 plug hole turn engine over until compression starts to build , continue turning engine as slow as possible until impulse clicks. Spark should be seen at no 1 plug and flywheel marks should be at or soon after the no 1 tdc mark . Turn engine slowly another 180 degrees and no 2 plug should fire and no 2 will be at tdc . The crank will turn another turn and a half before this is repeated but the impulse will click every half turn of the crank. ie; no 1 will spark again at 3rd click . Spark advance is taken care of when the engine starts, by the impulse . When using this method, time engine to TDC mark not the MAG mark.
On a 3T there is really only 2 ways the mag can be fitted . Right and wrong. Assuming the correct mag is fitted .
Hope this helps.
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 10:14 AM
STEPHEN
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Reply to Andrew:
Just to ad my bit .
I have several of these machines and feel i know the timing set up pretty well. Some good information on previous posts .
First job is to locate the timing marks on the flywheel. Remove the side plate on the flywheel housing and using a paint pen or similar highlight the timing marks on the flywheel for easier reference. Turn the engine over slowly with plugs removed as you have done . With a finger over no 1 plug hole turn engine over until compression starts to build , continue turning engine as slow as possible until impulse clicks. Spark should be seen at no 1 plug and flywheel marks should be at or soon after the no 1 tdc mark . Turn engine slowly another 180 degrees and no 2 plug should fire and no 2 will be at tdc . The crank will turn another turn and a half before this is repeated but the impulse will click every half turn of the crank. ie; no 1 will spark again at 3rd click . Spark advance is taken care of when the engine starts, by the impulse . When using this method, time engine to TDC mark not the MAG mark.
On a 3T there is really only 2 ways the mag can be fitted . Right and wrong. Assuming the correct mag is fitted .
Hope this helps.
Also, when looking for timing marks keep in mind that the flywheel turns opposite of the hand crank, at least it does if the crank was to come out of the front if the tractor. Crank out top of the hood? IDK!
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 11:39 AM
Duane
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Reply to STEPHEN:
Also, when looking for timing marks keep in mind that the flywheel turns opposite of the hand crank, at least it does if the crank was to come out of the front if the tractor. Crank out top of the hood? IDK!
Thanks to all of you for your valuable input.
It may be a few days before I can get back to the 3T, but I should be better qualified when I do.
Having the odd fire design explained should be a big help. The cap is configured as the one shown in Stephen's photo.
I have one idea about why my observation puts number two spark at such a strange time, but I won't go out on that limb
before I go back and make more observations.
When I know more, I will let you know.
For what it's worth, the tractor SN is 3T-8671
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 1:30 PM
Duane
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Reply to Duane:
Thanks to all of you for your valuable input.
It may be a few days before I can get back to the 3T, but I should be better qualified when I do.
Having the odd fire design explained should be a big help. The cap is configured as the one shown in Stephen's photo.
I have one idea about why my observation puts number two spark at such a strange time, but I won't go out on that limb
before I go back and make more observations.
When I know more, I will let you know.
For what it's worth, the tractor SN is 3T-8671
Another question on the D7.
The diesel fuel is "old enough to know better", but possibly not old enough to vote.
I have started quite a few old diesels without worrying about the fuel. They always seem to start and run.
I was just wondering if there is anything I should do, besides maybe changing the fuel filters.
Cat seems to be pretty proud of those rolls of string!
I don't want you to tell me to drain all the fuel, open the injector lines, purge them with new fuel, etc,. before attempting to start,
but i am inclined to defer to the wisdom of greater experience. The tractor's years of down time have been spent under cover, behind
closed doors.
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 2:30 PM
Andrew
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Reply to Duane:
Another question on the D7.
The diesel fuel is "old enough to know better", but possibly not old enough to vote.
I have started quite a few old diesels without worrying about the fuel. They always seem to start and run.
I was just wondering if there is anything I should do, besides maybe changing the fuel filters.
Cat seems to be pretty proud of those rolls of string!
I don't want you to tell me to drain all the fuel, open the injector lines, purge them with new fuel, etc,. before attempting to start,
but i am inclined to defer to the wisdom of greater experience. The tractor's years of down time have been spent under cover, behind
closed doors.
I have started lots of engines that have been sitting for many years and have never had a problem with old diesel.
In fact I would suggest the older the better, as the old fuel, I believe, had better lubrication quality's than todays fuel. Just my observations though.
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 5:25 PM
Ray54
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Reply to Andrew:
I have started lots of engines that have been sitting for many years and have never had a problem with old diesel.
In fact I would suggest the older the better, as the old fuel, I believe, had better lubrication quality's than todays fuel. Just my observations though.
I would guess 15 to 30 year old fuel is better than 3 to 10 year old due to changes made.
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 11:33 PM
Duane
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Reply to Ray54:
I would guess 15 to 30 year old fuel is better than 3 to 10 year old due to changes made.
Thanks for the fuel advice.
Sounds good to me!
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Tue, Nov 12, 2019 11:49 PM
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