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Is there a definitive way to diagnose a cracked head vs. head gasket

Is there a definitive way to diagnose a cracked head vs. head gasket

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Dunefanatic
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I have a D2 I picked up last year that after I ran the tractor a bit noticed that the water level was lower and the oil level was higher. I changed the oil/filters last year but have run the tractor for very short periods (less than ten minutes each) since the oil change. This past weekend I used the tractor for a few good thirty minute intervals pushing some small amounts of dirt. When I went to check the radiator I noticed the water level was below the rad core and the oil level had risen an inch on the tractor with the motor cool. Is there a definitive way to diagnose a cracked head vs. head gasket. I don't want to wrench on the tractor yet as it runs well (no slobbering or idle issues) but I am leary of what I may do if I push my luck or leave this situation unattended too long.

Advice from the knowledgable is greatly apprecaited. I am trying to finanically (and emotionally) prepare for what may come of this repair.

Thanks a bunch,

Greg
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Tue, Jul 17, 2007 11:36 AM
ol Grump
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Greg? IF you're getting water/ antifreeze in the oil, it's time to do something about it. As far as diagnosing whether it's a cracked head or a blown gasket, I don't know how. .maybe someone else does. Are you getting bubbles in the radiator filler when it's running? And maybe a trace of oil/ fuel in the radiator? By your description of the oil level rising, it's also probably getting gray or white. .that's water in the oil😮 . Either way, it's time to take the head off and check. .hopefully it's just a head gasket and not a crack in a cylinder wall or a cracked head.
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Tue, Jul 17, 2007 11:50 AM
Dunefanatic
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Reply to ol Grump:
Greg? IF you're getting water/ antifreeze in the oil, it's time to do something about it. As far as diagnosing whether it's a cracked head or a blown gasket, I don't know how. .maybe someone else does. Are you getting bubbles in the radiator filler when it's running? And maybe a trace of oil/ fuel in the radiator? By your description of the oil level rising, it's also probably getting gray or white. .that's water in the oil😮 . Either way, it's time to take the head off and check. .hopefully it's just a head gasket and not a crack in a cylinder wall or a cracked head.
Ol'Grump, The oil is remaining black and not getting white or foamy when the tractor is under use. I have not noticed traces of oil in the antifreeze but then again I would need to look carefully and I have not done that. Greg
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Tue, Jul 17, 2007 12:20 PM
Willie
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Reply to ol Grump:
Greg? IF you're getting water/ antifreeze in the oil, it's time to do something about it. As far as diagnosing whether it's a cracked head or a blown gasket, I don't know how. .maybe someone else does. Are you getting bubbles in the radiator filler when it's running? And maybe a trace of oil/ fuel in the radiator? By your description of the oil level rising, it's also probably getting gray or white. .that's water in the oil😮 . Either way, it's time to take the head off and check. .hopefully it's just a head gasket and not a crack in a cylinder wall or a cracked head.
You need to fill it to top again and watch see if it bubbles . If water is going to oilpan then the oil will turn milky colored and if precup are ate thru or coppers are bad then youll get fuel floating in rad.if Sounds to me like maybe the therostate open and filled some viods with water and the oil got warn and expanded. But as for your orig. quest. if its head gasket it will bubble the same hot or cold a crack will get worse as it warms up, Fill it up to rim watch for bubbles and or black soot and oil coming to top
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Tue, Jul 17, 2007 12:24 PM
edb
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Reply to Willie:
You need to fill it to top again and watch see if it bubbles . If water is going to oilpan then the oil will turn milky colored and if precup are ate thru or coppers are bad then youll get fuel floating in rad.if Sounds to me like maybe the therostate open and filled some viods with water and the oil got warn and expanded. But as for your orig. quest. if its head gasket it will bubble the same hot or cold a crack will get worse as it warms up, Fill it up to rim watch for bubbles and or black soot and oil coming to top
Hi Dunefanatic,
just possible it may be caused by an air lock in the pony engine cooling system, see the att. scans relevant to bleeding air out of the vent cock on top of the pony manifold.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
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Tue, Jul 17, 2007 1:40 PM
ccjersey
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Reply to edb:
Hi Dunefanatic,
just possible it may be caused by an air lock in the pony engine cooling system, see the att. scans relevant to bleeding air out of the vent cock on top of the pony manifold.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
gaining oil is most often due to fuel dilution.

I can see some thermal expansion or aeration of oil raising the level slightly while running, so check carefully after it has cooled off or something to make sure what you are measuring.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Wed, Jul 18, 2007 1:12 AM
drujinin
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Reply to ccjersey:
gaining oil is most often due to fuel dilution.

I can see some thermal expansion or aeration of oil raising the level slightly while running, so check carefully after it has cooled off or something to make sure what you are measuring.
On my D2-J series, the manual says to check the oil level running because when you shut it off, oil may/will drain back from the oil cooler into the crankcase. I agree that it would be milky if the crankcase had water in it.
You can go to your local automotive repair shop and buy a kit that allows you to put a base sample of your crankcase oil in it and a sample of your suspect oil to send out to be tested. It costs about $25 or so. Cheaper than taking off a head.
I had alot of trouble with mine blowing water until all the Prestone radiator flush cleaned the rust out of the engine passages. Then we got the air purged out of the pony and the engine block. The level has been fine since.
drujinin
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Wed, Jul 18, 2007 2:14 AM
Tom Madden_archive
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Reply to drujinin:
On my D2-J series, the manual says to check the oil level running because when you shut it off, oil may/will drain back from the oil cooler into the crankcase. I agree that it would be milky if the crankcase had water in it.
You can go to your local automotive repair shop and buy a kit that allows you to put a base sample of your crankcase oil in it and a sample of your suspect oil to send out to be tested. It costs about $25 or so. Cheaper than taking off a head.
I had alot of trouble with mine blowing water until all the Prestone radiator flush cleaned the rust out of the engine passages. Then we got the air purged out of the pony and the engine block. The level has been fine since.
drujinin
As I recall, Greg's 5U is direct electric start.
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Wed, Jul 18, 2007 3:07 AM
AJ.
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Reply to Tom Madden_archive:
As I recall, Greg's 5U is direct electric start.
If your head is cracked,blown gasket,low liner,precumbustion chamber pitted,loose or a cracked cylinder liner that would allow hot compression to leak into the cooling system and it would overheat very quick,it is possible that the seals on the bottom of one of the cylinder liners is leaking,that would not cause slobbering or overheating just coolant loss and the oil rising,next time you park up fill the rad full,when you come back to it check if the level has dropped and top it up again to see how much it takes,if it more than a pint it must be going somewhere,before you start the engine undo the sump plug and drain off a quart of what you will be hoping is oil,if there is coolant in it you should see it,if you find no coolant look for an external leak water pump, rad and hoses etc,see if the oil smells of diesel fuel or is diluted as that may be the cause of the level rising.
AJ
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Wed, Jul 18, 2007 4:38 AM
ttman4
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Reply to AJ.:
If your head is cracked,blown gasket,low liner,precumbustion chamber pitted,loose or a cracked cylinder liner that would allow hot compression to leak into the cooling system and it would overheat very quick,it is possible that the seals on the bottom of one of the cylinder liners is leaking,that would not cause slobbering or overheating just coolant loss and the oil rising,next time you park up fill the rad full,when you come back to it check if the level has dropped and top it up again to see how much it takes,if it more than a pint it must be going somewhere,before you start the engine undo the sump plug and drain off a quart of what you will be hoping is oil,if there is coolant in it you should see it,if you find no coolant look for an external leak water pump, rad and hoses etc,see if the oil smells of diesel fuel or is diluted as that may be the cause of the level rising.
AJ
I hope it's just something like air in system. But if it turns out that you're "making"oil from getting antifreeze or fuel in oil it's not good. Fuel or antifreeze in oil plays havock with bearings & innards.😮 😮
My 2cents....If you decide it's antifreeze and you're planning to still run it some before you "park it", it would be better to drain & refill with straight water this time of year. Some pure water in oil isn't as bad...not good either....especially if engine is run short trips.

Years ago when I was much poorer and figured there was no way in he** I could find any money, house full of barefoot kids, wifey that stayed pregnant, 😄 😄 I had a 1693 Cat in an 'ol over the road truck. It got to seeping antifreeze into the oil. I pulled several oil samples over several months, Cat kept telling me to Fix it Boy, Fix it!! But I kept "limping" round the country trying to make money.

Well, when it finally went down it really cost to overhaul. I pulled rabbits out of hats & got it done because Me, Cat, The Banker, Tooth Fairy, & The Easter Bunny all became partners with an overhaul loan on a truck.....🙄

Ahhhh, the good 'ol days.....sighhhhh
~and this too shall pass~
D6 9U6914SP, #46Hyd 1W523, 6A dozer #16C5869
R945B Liebherr Ex. (part owner)
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Thu, Jul 19, 2007 9:04 PM
SJ
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At the dealer I diagnosed dozens of engines by the air test & I made up an adapter from a nozzle nut & used an air regulator & shutoff valve.What you do is take the nozzle out & screw the adapter in the chamber & bring the engine up on TDC for each cyl. your checking & set the regulator for about 90 lbs. & shut the air off & observe the leak down in the cyl. & also with the radiator full observe if there are bubbles in the coolant.If not go to the next cyl. and do the same procedure & go through all of them till you check them all.If you find just one that leaks into the cooling you could remove that chamber to check it for being bad but if it,s ok then I,d suggest to remove the head as it almost has to be a crack or head gasket anyway so either way it has to be removed. Cat did make a dummy nozzle that was just a hollow shaped nozzle to pump the air down inside the engine for this type test as they recommened the test to determine a problem like this.This testing I found to be so helpful & always proved the problem one way or the other.Also with the head off then you can again almost tell if it,s a bad gasket or a bad head or low liner etc.The nut for a D4 is 4F5677 that holds the nozzle down in so all you need to do is weld a pipe nipple or whatever you need to connect your air line to the nut & you need the seal under the nut to seal (5B371😎 it tight so air doesn,t leak by it.Again make sure your on TDC firing stroke for the test on each cyl.and make sure the throttle is off.Also if the engine wants to turn with the air in the cyl. then lock the brakes & put in low gear with the clutch engaged for each cyl. test. I never really had a problem of it doing that but some say they have.
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Fri, Jul 20, 2007 2:46 AM
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