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How many have ever run a diesel engine backwards?

How many have ever run a diesel engine backwards?

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ccjersey
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I've heard of it, but never seen it until today.

D330T in a 944 loader (a 2 speed power shift transmission with torque converter ahead of a high/low range shifter. When in low range, it's 4 wheel drive)

The loader had flats on both back tires and was sitting out in the sun, so we cranked it up, lifted the bucket and moved it enough to get backed up to it with the Steiger. Had first tried to just jack it up where it was, but the second time it fell off the jack, the sun came out from behind a cloud and convinced me to take it to the shop on a concrete floor with plenty of air supply etc and most importantly..... in front of a fan. πŸ˜†

Anyway, I went and got the tractor to lift the back of the loader and when I got there, I never got out of the cab, one of our guys hooked up the lifting chain and hopped on the loader for some reason, maybe he thought he would need to steer?

When I got to the shop, we lifted it with the tractor hitch and blocked it securely under the rear axle housing so we could work on both the tires without any more jacking etc. Much easier and safer than jacking that beast, even on a level concrete floor!

Anyway, after I parked the tractor, I came back and noticed the loader was still running and exhaust smoke was coming out of the precleaner stack! Couldn't believe it, but put my hand up there and felt it and then checked the fan roatation, sure enough it was sucking back toward the engine instead of blowing out the back!

I guess the loader was still in low forward with the engine running to maintain the transmission pressure when I started off pulling it, rolling on the front wheels. It must have choked the engine down and before transmission lost pressure, started it up going backwards!

As soon as I shut it down, I restarted it and of course it started up in the correct direction.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare timeπŸ˜„
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Fri, Jul 26, 2013 12:03 PM
Deas Plant.
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Hi, CCJersey,
Been there - done that. I was doing some clearing in light-medium scrub with a 2T D4 'dozer pulling a log by a chain to each end so that it was at right angles to the line of travel. I struck a slightly bigger tree and the little D4 started to lug down. I hit the clutch lever but just a tad too late. Next second there was oil and smoke coming out of the air cleaner. Shut-'er-down and get busy on the pilot motor again. Didn't seem to do it any harm.

I have also been told that the early Lanz single-cylinder hot bulb semi-diesels had no reverse gear and you had to make the engine run backwards by almost killing them with the throttle and then trying to bounce them off compression to get them to run backwards by reefing the throttle open again when you though they had almost stopped. Sometimes, they would actually start backwards and you had to use the same trick in reverse to get them running the right way.

Just my 0.02.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Fri, Jul 26, 2013 1:03 PM
edb
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Hi CCJ,
like you I have heard of it but never experienced it.
Had many G Series graders do this as I had the turbo's off them to fix as they had oil dripping from the inlet snail. The oil problem was caused by the soot blocking the inside of the air cleaner safety element and the resulting restricted inlet pressure drawing the oil into the inlet manifold, when they were re--started in the correct direction.
The operators usually said they never noticed the engine was running in rev--smoke caught by air cleaner element-- but that the engine restarted itself after not fully locking the foot pedal into the lock position after shut down and the hydraulic pump and system pressure turned the engine in reverse and it restarted.

I have run a Pre-comb. engine incorrectly timed 180~ out by a client--he was there for a dyno test after he did a rebuild on D330 engine also, and insisted it would go with "Start Ya B#$%^*d", a local engine ether start spray can, and at his risk HE squired said fluid in to the intake.
It ran poorly but did run from excess residual fuel in the cylinders dieseling.

Did know of at least one engine needing full re-build after running in rev. whilst the operator refueled and, said "blow it" after the engine restarted as he left the cab. He only shut it down when he heard the engine knocking from failed bearings.
Was mainly a problem with the New Scroll Injection pumps as fitted to the DI 3304/6 etc.
They came out with a redesigned cam shape to stop this occuring.
Scan below is a Service Letter on this problem.

Your explaination of the events leading to your engine re-starting in reverse rotation is what I also could agree to as the sequence of events to cause such a condition to occur.
Interesting stuff.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
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Fri, Jul 26, 2013 1:25 PM
djcat
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Reply to edb:
Hi CCJ,
like you I have heard of it but never experienced it.
Had many G Series graders do this as I had the turbo's off them to fix as they had oil dripping from the inlet snail. The oil problem was caused by the soot blocking the inside of the air cleaner safety element and the resulting restricted inlet pressure drawing the oil into the inlet manifold, when they were re--started in the correct direction.
The operators usually said they never noticed the engine was running in rev--smoke caught by air cleaner element-- but that the engine restarted itself after not fully locking the foot pedal into the lock position after shut down and the hydraulic pump and system pressure turned the engine in reverse and it restarted.

I have run a Pre-comb. engine incorrectly timed 180~ out by a client--he was there for a dyno test after he did a rebuild on D330 engine also, and insisted it would go with "Start Ya B#$%^*d", a local engine ether start spray can, and at his risk HE squired said fluid in to the intake.
It ran poorly but did run from excess residual fuel in the cylinders dieseling.

Did know of at least one engine needing full re-build after running in rev. whilst the operator refueled and, said "blow it" after the engine restarted as he left the cab. He only shut it down when he heard the engine knocking from failed bearings.
Was mainly a problem with the New Scroll Injection pumps as fitted to the DI 3304/6 etc.
They came out with a redesigned cam shape to stop this occuring.
Scan below is a Service Letter on this problem.

Your explaination of the events leading to your engine re-starting in reverse rotation is what I also could agree to as the sequence of events to cause such a condition to occur.
Interesting stuff.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
Attachment
Attachment
Yep it does happen alright... D342's will run backwards. Just ask anyone who has pulled scrub with a direct drive!!
Burns the cyclone tubes out of the precleaner system real quick.

Cheers djcat
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Fri, Jul 26, 2013 5:56 PM
ol Grump
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Reply to djcat:
Yep it does happen alright... D342's will run backwards. Just ask anyone who has pulled scrub with a direct drive!!
Burns the cyclone tubes out of the precleaner system real quick.

Cheers djcat
Several years ago I was breaking in a new driver on an 8 yd dump truck with a Cat 3208 engine. He'd stalled it on a grade and didn't hit the clutch at all, it proceeded to roll back down the hill with the engine running backward. I told him to stomp the clutch and shut it off, set the brake and restart the engine.

So yes, it appears some diesel engines can run backwards under the right circumstances.
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Fri, Jul 26, 2013 6:53 PM
johan7
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Reply to ol Grump:
Several years ago I was breaking in a new driver on an 8 yd dump truck with a Cat 3208 engine. He'd stalled it on a grade and didn't hit the clutch at all, it proceeded to roll back down the hill with the engine running backward. I told him to stomp the clutch and shut it off, set the brake and restart the engine.

So yes, it appears some diesel engines can run backwards under the right circumstances.
Yes , almost every oldtimer has experienced . Downhill , choking or during a push-start , blade against blade . On D6 , 7 and 8 there was a forward-reverse lever .
When push-started the lever should be in reverse , what was forgotten sometimes .
In general : many older dieselengines can rotate the other way round . Because there is a "normal" camshaft in the pump . To prevent this problem there were engines with a "180 degree" camshaft .So the injection happened at the end of the exhaust stroke , no problem .
But be alert : THERE IS NO , I SAY NO LUBRICATION !!!!!!!!!!
Simple : the pressure pump rotates the wrong direction .
The story about that older Lanz tractor is correct : there was no reverse . Just reverse the engine .
The Netherlands , johan7
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Fri, Jul 26, 2013 7:21 PM
neil
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Reply to johan7:
Yes , almost every oldtimer has experienced . Downhill , choking or during a push-start , blade against blade . On D6 , 7 and 8 there was a forward-reverse lever .
When push-started the lever should be in reverse , what was forgotten sometimes .
In general : many older dieselengines can rotate the other way round . Because there is a "normal" camshaft in the pump . To prevent this problem there were engines with a "180 degree" camshaft .So the injection happened at the end of the exhaust stroke , no problem .
But be alert : THERE IS NO , I SAY NO LUBRICATION !!!!!!!!!!
Simple : the pressure pump rotates the wrong direction .
The story about that older Lanz tractor is correct : there was no reverse . Just reverse the engine .
The Netherlands , johan7
My very own 8V71 runs backwards, better than I thought it would - hard to steer in 15th gear though with a longs trailer behind ; ) Very easy to get it to do this - just stall the truck going up a hill and as it rolls backwards, the engine will start running again, chuffing smoke out of the air cleaner.

I recall my cousin had this thing in N.Z. called a Gnat - it was a forerunner to ATVs from the '70s. Anyhoo, that thing had two speeds, and to reverse, the driver turned the ignition key off, and turned it counter-clockwise to start it in reverse. Seemed to work ok. I don't recall what brand the engine was.
Cheers,
Neil
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Fri, Jul 26, 2013 8:01 PM
dpendzic
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Reply to neil:
My very own 8V71 runs backwards, better than I thought it would - hard to steer in 15th gear though with a longs trailer behind ; ) Very easy to get it to do this - just stall the truck going up a hill and as it rolls backwards, the engine will start running again, chuffing smoke out of the air cleaner.

I recall my cousin had this thing in N.Z. called a Gnat - it was a forerunner to ATVs from the '70s. Anyhoo, that thing had two speeds, and to reverse, the driver turned the ignition key off, and turned it counter-clockwise to start it in reverse. Seemed to work ok. I don't recall what brand the engine was.
Cheers,
Neil
Most newer snowmobiles have no reverse gears and the engine runs backwards for reverse.
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Fri, Jul 26, 2013 8:39 PM
ronm
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Reply to dpendzic:
Most newer snowmobiles have no reverse gears and the engine runs backwards for reverse.
Several years back at the antique tractor pull, a guy hooked up w/a JD 70 Diesel, & killed it trying to get the sled moving...he then engaged the clutch again & it backed up against the front of the sled...he was totally flustered, he kept trying different gears, & nothing would work right...πŸ˜†
I was standing by the track, & noticed the oil puking out of the air stack, so I ran out there & told him to shut it off, it's running backwards! He looked at me like a deer in the headlights, but finally shut it down, restarted it w/the pony, & it was OK, but the look on his face? Priceless!!!
Those 2-cyl. Diesels were kinda bad about that-if you killed it & it rocked backwards, look out...πŸ˜†
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Fri, Jul 26, 2013 8:50 PM
Ray54
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Reply to ronm:
Several years back at the antique tractor pull, a guy hooked up w/a JD 70 Diesel, & killed it trying to get the sled moving...he then engaged the clutch again & it backed up against the front of the sled...he was totally flustered, he kept trying different gears, & nothing would work right...πŸ˜†
I was standing by the track, & noticed the oil puking out of the air stack, so I ran out there & told him to shut it off, it's running backwards! He looked at me like a deer in the headlights, but finally shut it down, restarted it w/the pony, & it was OK, but the look on his face? Priceless!!!
Those 2-cyl. Diesels were kinda bad about that-if you killed it & it rocked backwards, look out...πŸ˜†
Done this twice with 9u D6's one a dry air cleaner and the other a oil bath.Didn't take long to see the problem,of dirt and smoke coming out the air cleaner in your face on the dry one,and oil blowing out of the wet one.Both times it happened roll starting at noon,both cases had a lot of hill left so ,killed it put transmission in forward and away I went back to a long day of hillside tillage.
Ray
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Fri, Jul 26, 2013 9:41 PM
old-iron-habit
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Reply to Ray54:
Done this twice with 9u D6's one a dry air cleaner and the other a oil bath.Didn't take long to see the problem,of dirt and smoke coming out the air cleaner in your face on the dry one,and oil blowing out of the wet one.Both times it happened roll starting at noon,both cases had a lot of hill left so ,killed it put transmission in forward and away I went back to a long day of hillside tillage.
Ray
It was common back in the 70's on the two stroke screaming jimmys to catch the clutch to late on a hard pull and have the engine catch and run backward at a crappy idle. Never ran very fast but sure chuffed a lot of smoke out of the air cleaner while you were pulling the kill cable. First impression always was that it was on fire. If I recollect correctly the only difference on a reverse rotation Detroit engine was that it had a reverse grind camshaft. Never had it happen to me with a Cat yet. Now you are making me nervous with my 9U.
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Sat, Jul 27, 2013 12:52 AM
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