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D6 Bad news/luck

D6 Bad news/luck

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supertiga
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Turbo went on fine and every thing stayed in place
http://www.acmocbb.org/ACMOC_BB/showthread.php?t=5257

Will describe what I think happened before asking.

Before walking machine from barn to shop for turbo work youngest son checked water.
Apparently he saw water on the plate in top of radiator and thought it was ok.

We let it run for 30min or so until I heard it missing and saw the temp gage pegged.😮
Thinking it was ok and the 10 year old fuel was probably the miss.

So turbo back on and fill cooling from garden hose---sure seemed to need allot.

Now I notice water seeping from exhaust bolts so I reached in to the turbo(no stack) and felt water!😠

OK-drained water and pulled exaust housing off turbo to dry it out.

Looking down exaust manifold it looks like the water was coming from back 1/2 of engine.

No water showed up in oil (oil level same)

Best guesses as to head gasket/cracked head/ or OTHER source of the water? which is most likely?

Will go pull Injectors ant try to determine if it is only in one or 2 or all 3 rear cylinders.

Unless someone knows of another way for the water to get in I guess pull the head next.
How do I avoid disturbing liners?

Bummer.😞

Thanks guys!
David
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 4:30 AM
Old Magnet
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Dang....what luck,
Other sources besides cracked head and head gasket would be leaking pre-combustion chamber seal and or pre-com chamber pin hole.

Fill it back up with water and run (if you can) to see if you are getting compression bubbles at the radiator fill. Not practical if you are dealing with a flood or suspect cylinders full of water.

Removing the head will not disturb the liners.
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 5:45 AM
supertiga
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Dang....what luck,
Other sources besides cracked head and head gasket would be leaking pre-combustion chamber seal and or pre-com chamber pin hole.

Fill it back up with water and run (if you can) to see if you are getting compression bubbles at the radiator fill. Not practical if you are dealing with a flood or suspect cylinders full of water.

Removing the head will not disturb the liners.
Hey Magnet

Yeah it got me bumbed real bad.
And probably long winded and rambling---sorry.😞
Will try not to become a pest.

It looked like I was going to be able to get back on my feet-just barely after recovering from the chemo and crap(have to do it again soon)
Well it ain't whooped me yet!

So back to the important stuff.

After the hot run(10 min later) I did check various block temps with infrared temp gage.
Highest temp reading found was 198 on the block water jacket cylinder locations.

Pulled the injectors.
#5 had drops of water on it and could see water on top of piston(?) or at least in the pre comb chamber.
#4 we could see water
Couldn't see water in the others.
(Head gasket?)

Spun engine and was amazed at the force the water shot out with!!!😮
I was such a surprised that did not get to see what cylinders made water and the amount of water discharged wet every thing to the point of not being able to tell where it actually came from.Lots of water!!!!
It did not help that after the first time we then covered engine with cardboard to keep the water off us.
The water from #5 came out with such force that it punched a hole completely through 2 layers of heavy cardboard(box flattened)!!!!!!
Any one doing this be care full! It ain't no gasoline engine!!!!!!!

Next we pulled the intake manifold cover looking for a crack from the water outlet----Found Water---looks like it came from the cylinders direction.
Hard to say.

Son is pulling water outlet(in front of manifold) so we can look for a crack from that end.

Also in the intake manifold found an O ring laying in the manifold.
O ring is approx 1/2 inch OD.????????????????

Being mainly a gas engine guy and know diesels but very rarely going into the engines I am lost on the pre combustion chamber thing.(installationaly challenged not theory)
the manuals I have are no help on this part.
There is some kind of fitting(?) with a knurled/splined(for spanner?)that the injector screwed into.
Is this the pre combustion chamber?
That would be nice! If thats where the problem is.
Need to find a wrench to fit---think I have some kind of injector wrench from the past---think it for JD though
Probably never find it anyway.
Big pair of channel locks? please don't tell anyone I said that!

My manuals are next to no use so any info that can be posted will help at this point.
D6C 76A5795(1964)
Head bolt torque
Rocker clearance
Rocker shaft bolt tq
Any thing.

The more I think about it there is not enough water in manifold to come from the front of manifold.

Hoping for an easy pre comb chamber fix.
That head looks heavy!😮

Thanks Guys
The help here is far superior to any local.😎

David
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 8:25 AM
OzDozer
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Dang....what luck,
Other sources besides cracked head and head gasket would be leaking pre-combustion chamber seal and or pre-com chamber pin hole.

Fill it back up with water and run (if you can) to see if you are getting compression bubbles at the radiator fill. Not practical if you are dealing with a flood or suspect cylinders full of water.

Removing the head will not disturb the liners.
David - The simplest thing to do first is refill the cooling sytem, crank the engine over, and see which specific ports the water comes from. Then remove the precombustion chamber from that cylinder and check it for holes.

Your problem is almost certainly related to corrosion from sitting for an extended period .. and precoms are a major problem area for developing pinholes from corrosion, and letting water into the combustion chamber.

The amount of water in the engine would have been satisfactory, if the water level was visible .. it's been pumped out the exhaust whilst running, and lowered the amount of available coolant, thus creating the overheating.
With luck, you haven't cracked the head .. but unfortunately, these old D333 heads are prone to cracking when they have been overheated.
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 8:29 AM
OzDozer
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Reply to OzDozer:
David - The simplest thing to do first is refill the cooling sytem, crank the engine over, and see which specific ports the water comes from. Then remove the precombustion chamber from that cylinder and check it for holes.

Your problem is almost certainly related to corrosion from sitting for an extended period .. and precoms are a major problem area for developing pinholes from corrosion, and letting water into the combustion chamber.

The amount of water in the engine would have been satisfactory, if the water level was visible .. it's been pumped out the exhaust whilst running, and lowered the amount of available coolant, thus creating the overheating.
With luck, you haven't cracked the head .. but unfortunately, these old D333 heads are prone to cracking when they have been overheated.
O.K. .. you posted above whilst I was typing. Your #5 precom chamber is definitely holed in a big way. You need the precom removal tool, Cat P/N 5F8353, which looks like a bolt with splines instead of threads. They are often for sale on eBay, or you may be able to borrow one.

You have the later, one-piece precom chambers in your D333, and the 5F8353 tool is shown at (A) in the center bottom pic of this page from the tool book. The other precoms shown are earlier versions.

The precom tool is dropped in the hole vacated by the injector, and engages with the splines on the inside of the precom. You will need a BIG strong 3/4 drive bar, AND a BIG cheater .. 6' long is good .. 😄
These precoms can be VERY tight to remove, so ensure you have a good grip on them, and ensure you can't slip and fall, if the precom lets go with a bang. No need to remove the head yet, you can get the precoms out easier if the head is still bolted to the engine .. rather than trying to wrestle with it attached to a bench.
Attachment
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 8:40 AM
OzDozer
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Reply to OzDozer:
O.K. .. you posted above whilst I was typing. Your #5 precom chamber is definitely holed in a big way. You need the precom removal tool, Cat P/N 5F8353, which looks like a bolt with splines instead of threads. They are often for sale on eBay, or you may be able to borrow one.

You have the later, one-piece precom chambers in your D333, and the 5F8353 tool is shown at (A) in the center bottom pic of this page from the tool book. The other precoms shown are earlier versions.

The precom tool is dropped in the hole vacated by the injector, and engages with the splines on the inside of the precom. You will need a BIG strong 3/4 drive bar, AND a BIG cheater .. 6' long is good .. 😄
These precoms can be VERY tight to remove, so ensure you have a good grip on them, and ensure you can't slip and fall, if the precom lets go with a bang. No need to remove the head yet, you can get the precoms out easier if the head is still bolted to the engine .. rather than trying to wrestle with it attached to a bench.
Attachment
Here is the page from the manual showing the precom design and removal/installation instructions. When you install the new precom, you need to use anti-seize on the threads, and soap or handcleaner on the o-rings.

Precom design and removal/installation instructions .. http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/8011/precomd333ng1.jpg

Also, there are several thicknesses of gasket (which is actually a steel ring or washer), and you need to experiment with fitting a couple of different thicknesses to ensure the glowplug hole ends up in the correct position when the precom is tightened.

Cat have a chart that shows a "go" or "no go" arc for the final position of the plow plug hole. This is to ensure that the glow plug can be refitted without problems and doesn't foul components that are close to it.
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 9:08 AM
OzDozer
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Reply to OzDozer:
Here is the page from the manual showing the precom design and removal/installation instructions. When you install the new precom, you need to use anti-seize on the threads, and soap or handcleaner on the o-rings.

Precom design and removal/installation instructions .. http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/8011/precomd333ng1.jpg

Also, there are several thicknesses of gasket (which is actually a steel ring or washer), and you need to experiment with fitting a couple of different thicknesses to ensure the glowplug hole ends up in the correct position when the precom is tightened.

Cat have a chart that shows a "go" or "no go" arc for the final position of the plow plug hole. This is to ensure that the glow plug can be refitted without problems and doesn't foul components that are close to it.
Here is the glow plug installation instructions/specifications, and positioning chart, showing the "go" and "no go" positions ..
Attachment
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 9:20 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to OzDozer:
O.K. .. you posted above whilst I was typing. Your #5 precom chamber is definitely holed in a big way. You need the precom removal tool, Cat P/N 5F8353, which looks like a bolt with splines instead of threads. They are often for sale on eBay, or you may be able to borrow one.

You have the later, one-piece precom chambers in your D333, and the 5F8353 tool is shown at (A) in the center bottom pic of this page from the tool book. The other precoms shown are earlier versions.

The precom tool is dropped in the hole vacated by the injector, and engages with the splines on the inside of the precom. You will need a BIG strong 3/4 drive bar, AND a BIG cheater .. 6' long is good .. 😄
These precoms can be VERY tight to remove, so ensure you have a good grip on them, and ensure you can't slip and fall, if the precom lets go with a bang. No need to remove the head yet, you can get the precoms out easier if the head is still bolted to the engine .. rather than trying to wrestle with it attached to a bench.
Attachment
Buck up😊 😊
I'm sure we can get you through this with the info as you need it.
Must have used the channel locks already if you got the injectors out. The splined tool socket for the nut is a 8S2243.
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 9:38 AM
supertiga
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Reply to OzDozer:
Here is the glow plug installation instructions/specifications, and positioning chart, showing the "go" and "no go" positions ..
Attachment
Un believable!

I am at a loss for words!😊 ( and thats unusual!)

In my wildest dream I never thought that I would find this level of help and knowledge on the net--or anywhere.

Before yall bring tears to my eyes I going to try to print this stuff out and study for tomorow.

Special thanks to you OZ!😊
Fantastic crystal clear explanations

Thanks Guys
David

P.S.
It is against the laws of nature to assemble threaded fasteners with out anti-seize !(Right?)😊
With the rare exceptions.

Rubber assy lube should be OK?
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 9:43 AM
supertiga
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Reply to supertiga:
Un believable!

I am at a loss for words!😊 ( and thats unusual!)

In my wildest dream I never thought that I would find this level of help and knowledge on the net--or anywhere.

Before yall bring tears to my eyes I going to try to print this stuff out and study for tomorow.

Special thanks to you OZ!😊
Fantastic crystal clear explanations

Thanks Guys
David

P.S.
It is against the laws of nature to assemble threaded fasteners with out anti-seize !(Right?)😊
With the rare exceptions.

Rubber assy lube should be OK?
Thanks Magnet!
Need all the support I can get>😊 😊 😊 😊




Actualy the injectors had hex head captive(?) nuts doing a compresion type thing on the injecter.
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 9:47 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to supertiga:
Thanks Magnet!
Need all the support I can get>😊 😊 😊 😊




Actualy the injectors had hex head captive(?) nuts doing a compresion type thing on the injecter.
OK, must have been the internal spline you were referring to. Couldn't figure how you would go for that with channel locks😮
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Sat, Dec 20, 2008 10:59 AM
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