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D4400 lower oil ring necessary?

D4400 lower oil ring necessary?

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RobC
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Is there any Cat publication saying the lower oil ring is not needed for D4400? Seem too dry at top wearing out top ring.
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Sat, Sep 15, 2018 7:24 AM
Rome K/G
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Leave it off, pistons run too dry with them.
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Sat, Sep 15, 2018 9:45 AM
WA7OPY
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I would think trying to out engineer CAT would be very foolish, If the D4400 didn't need the lower oil ring it would not be there. I would check the ring end gap and other spes of the bore and piston. It takes very little oil to lub the piston in the bore. It would be quite the experiment to leave it out, only to tear the engine down to put them back...My 2 cents...WA7OPY
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Sat, Sep 15, 2018 9:51 AM
Rome K/G
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Reply to WA7OPY:
I would think trying to out engineer CAT would be very foolish, If the D4400 didn't need the lower oil ring it would not be there. I would check the ring end gap and other spes of the bore and piston. It takes very little oil to lub the piston in the bore. It would be quite the experiment to leave it out, only to tear the engine down to put them back...My 2 cents...WA7OPY
That was before they realized they didn't need it, runs perfect without it. All the later D4's and other engines don't need the lower ring.
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Sat, Sep 15, 2018 11:09 AM
ccjersey
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I have no experience with one, but you do have plenty of rings left above the piston pin. You would not be down to 3208 configuration with 2........count them.....2 rings. I will grant the 3208 wasn't famous for longevity!
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Sat, Sep 15, 2018 8:16 PM
Rome K/G
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Reply to ccjersey:
I have no experience with one, but you do have plenty of rings left above the piston pin. You would not be down to 3208 configuration with 2........count them.....2 rings. I will grant the 3208 wasn't famous for longevity!
But a D4400 doesnt run 2500 rpm!
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Sun, Sep 16, 2018 3:15 AM
WA7OPY
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Reply to Rome K/G:
But a D4400 doesnt run 2500 rpm!
I could be that the lower ring might hold the oil between the two rings with the wrist-pin supplying oil between them with leakage from the bearing fit of the piston. I am sure Cat done a lot of r/d before the D4400 was put out to production. Or it might not be necessary with modern oils, I used both oil control rings in mine engine, and I have seen two oil rings used in many older diesel engines....WA7OPY
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Sun, Sep 16, 2018 8:07 AM
RobC
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Reply to WA7OPY:
I could be that the lower ring might hold the oil between the two rings with the wrist-pin supplying oil between them with leakage from the bearing fit of the piston. I am sure Cat done a lot of r/d before the D4400 was put out to production. Or it might not be necessary with modern oils, I used both oil control rings in mine engine, and I have seen two oil rings used in many older diesel engines....WA7OPY
Originally there were 6 rings, per my parts book. Top 4 were the same. Then they put a chrome ring on top. Then they went to the latest piston with 5 rings. Hastings has oil rings, not nearly as tight fitting, using a spring behind the top one but not on the bottom one they recommend. The cross section is different, more modern, where there is a radius cut out instead of a square corner where it contacts the wall. This allows the hydraulic pressure of the oil caused by piston motion to compress the ring a bit to let a little oil by. So I'm thinking I'll use this ring on the bottom, and the Cat ring on top (I have two complete sets of Cat rings, buying Hastings rings and spacers for the rest, need to regroove the top one ). But also I think in my case there was quite a bit of dirt ingestion causing the upper ring land wear. There is scoring above the top ring.
Also the new liners are honed and probably hold oil longer than the original etched liners (as they wear) and will probably last longer especially with the newer oils. And the Hastings lower oil ring will add a little more oil for the skirt. So hope it works OK.
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Mon, Sep 17, 2018 8:13 AM
ccjersey
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Could you post a closeup picture of the Hastings and CAT rings and how you plan to install them?

If I understand you correctly, the Hastings oil control rings are solid rings but with the top edge radiused so it scrapes oil mostly on the down stroke? Or maybe it is a conventional modern oil control ring with a spring expander and a channel between top and bottom edges?
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Wed, Sep 19, 2018 11:51 PM
RobC
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Reply to ccjersey:
Could you post a closeup picture of the Hastings and CAT rings and how you plan to install them?

If I understand you correctly, the Hastings oil control rings are solid rings but with the top edge radiused so it scrapes oil mostly on the down stroke? Or maybe it is a conventional modern oil control ring with a spring expander and a channel between top and bottom edges?
Here are photos of the different rings. Hastings has an expander. Radius is on both sides, Cat has square edges. Chad Enyeart in Laramie leaves out the bottom ring with no problem, based on an old service letter he remembers. Chad restores old Cat machines. So I'm just going to leave out the lower ring and use the Cat ring for upper. Note I see photos are poor quality. Will get better ones.
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Fri, Sep 21, 2018 10:12 PM
RobC
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Reply to RobC:
Here are photos of the different rings. Hastings has an expander. Radius is on both sides, Cat has square edges. Chad Enyeart in Laramie leaves out the bottom ring with no problem, based on an old service letter he remembers. Chad restores old Cat machines. So I'm just going to leave out the lower ring and use the Cat ring for upper. Note I see photos are poor quality. Will get better ones.
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Here are better photos hopefully.
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Fri, Sep 21, 2018 10:59 PM
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