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D2 5J - Spinning Right 'Round but No Go

D2 5J - Spinning Right 'Round but No Go

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RuralTowner
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5J3750SP original motor (tag matches one on rear case).

Couple weeks back decided to try getting a 1940 5J going again after sitting for years. Got engine unstuck easily enough though. Didn't have to get drastic. Replaced what I thought were going to be old fuel filters but turned out they'd been replaced recently w/ sock type. Removed//cleaned gummed pumps.Didn't pull pony carb but cleared the jets. Pony sediment bowl was corroded shut but managed to clear. Pony fired on the first yank. Stalled when tried to engage pinion...main motor had stuck again after sitting another week+. Freed it up by cranking over by hand w/ bit channel locks on pump collar attached to crank pulley.

Pony fired on 2nd draw & could see it spitting fine rust out the exhaust. Kept lifter rack cover off so could be sure the lifters were operating (they were). Bled the tower. With throttle @ half+ bled the pumps then the lines both @ pumps then injectors. However even with the decompression set to RUN & cranking for 15 minutes it never coughed black even once even with throttle wide open. An asthmatic w/ COPD could cough more smoke. To see what I was getting for fueling I disengaged the pinon then disconnected #4 line from the injector & turned it off to the side, tightened the pump nut then re-engaged the pinion. It would spit fuel but shouldn't it be more of a jet under pressure when fuel charge is delivered? Had the thin cardboard box some gasket material came in (for filter tower) & it never even dented it.

Got the D2 back in late 16 & was always very long to get it to start. Only ran it a couple times for a short period. Last time it actually ran was early 19 when I had to free up the pumps the 1st time...ran briefly then it sat. Now though I intend to not let it "just sit". Learned a few things since then too...courtesy of Squatch253s 5J1113. Removed the cap on the service meter & it was bone dry. Prior to this recent start attempt filled with straight 30W. Looking like even the POs didn't keep track of it so I expect the lifter cam to be worn & lifters likely flattened. Picked up a digital depth gauge but the rods on it won't fit in the lifter forks. Though nowhere near accurate took a caliper w/ the depth strap & set it to 1.750 (I know the depth to look for is 1.741) but even with that when checked at #1 the end of the caliper was below the lifter housing. But since it "ran before" I opted to leave the lifter settings as is...this time with some lubrication. However it's a no-start. There's no fuel leakage though I suppose it's possible the lift pump's pressure regulator might be gummed by half.

Fuel pressure gauge doesn't work. Can fashion something up though. Could be I'm looking at insufficient fuel delivery? Lifters have insufficient rise to give a fuel charge? Should the "box test" on the end of the fuel line ideally being under pump pressure had punched a hole clean through it?

I found replacement lifters easily enough but since the lifter cam housing was dry I expect there to be flat spots so didn't want to go buy new lifters then install & just ruin another set. So I'm now in the market for another cam.
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Mon, Feb 24, 2025 7:55 AM
neil
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Open the bleeder on the fuel filter tower and check how much delivery there is. If there isn't but a dribble, clean out the transfer pump relief valve. It could be stuck open preventing the pump from delivering properly to the injection pumps
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Mon, Feb 24, 2025 12:10 PM
RuralTowner
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Reply to neil:
Open the bleeder on the fuel filter tower and check how much delivery there is. If there isn't but a dribble, clean out the transfer pump relief valve. It could be stuck open preventing the pump from delivering properly to the injection pumps
With bleeder open on tower I get a steady stream of fuel out the tube but seems little difference between cracked & wide open. One of the reasons I changed the filters is I suspected them to be old & plugged which didn't turn out to be the case. Now the tower WAS still full (pulled the drain) prior to the change. But the pump being the lowest point I agree it could be the pump seeing a partial bypass if any sludge is there.
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Mon, Feb 24, 2025 1:26 PM
neil
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Reply to RuralTowner:
With bleeder open on tower I get a steady stream of fuel out the tube but seems little difference between cracked & wide open. One of the reasons I changed the filters is I suspected them to be old & plugged which didn't turn out to be the case. Now the tower WAS still full (pulled the drain) prior to the change. But the pump being the lowest point I agree it could be the pump seeing a partial bypass if any sludge is there.
The other thing I found on my 5U was the gallery inside the injection pump camshaft body was almost completely plugged. It runs front to back from the filter tower. Do you get a strong flow out of the injection pump bleeders?
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Tue, Feb 25, 2025 12:56 AM
RuralTowner
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Reply to RuralTowner:
With bleeder open on tower I get a steady stream of fuel out the tube but seems little difference between cracked & wide open. One of the reasons I changed the filters is I suspected them to be old & plugged which didn't turn out to be the case. Now the tower WAS still full (pulled the drain) prior to the change. But the pump being the lowest point I agree it could be the pump seeing a partial bypass if any sludge is there.
I appear to get good flow out the bleeders. Get a drip curtain coming off the backside when they're wide open (at least on a couple). Would be great if CAT had done it where the bleeder orifices faced out instead of towards the engine. I know the lifter adjustment is out since #1 (only one measured so far) plunger appears to read more more than a crude 1.750...probably closer to 1.825 since the butt end of the caliper sits half way between the upper mounting face & inside of the lifter housing.
What I'm going to do is get the thing running again & have all 4 lines safely directed outward so fuel stream cam be observed & still get to the pinion lever.
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Tue, Feb 25, 2025 7:59 AM
neil
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Reply to RuralTowner:
I appear to get good flow out the bleeders. Get a drip curtain coming off the backside when they're wide open (at least on a couple). Would be great if CAT had done it where the bleeder orifices faced out instead of towards the engine. I know the lifter adjustment is out since #1 (only one measured so far) plunger appears to read more more than a crude 1.750...probably closer to 1.825 since the butt end of the caliper sits half way between the upper mounting face & inside of the lifter housing.
What I'm going to do is get the thing running again & have all 4 lines safely directed outward so fuel stream cam be observed & still get to the pinion lever.
When you set it to Run, does it sound like it's working against compression?
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Tue, Feb 25, 2025 2:33 PM
trainzkid88
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Reply to neil:
When you set it to Run, does it sound like it's working against compression?
neil has a good point about compression.

does it have a stuck valve?. remover the rocker covers and check the valve gear
and are the injectors actually working only way to check that is remove them and have them out side the cylinder head
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Tue, Feb 25, 2025 6:46 PM
RuralTowner
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Reply to RuralTowner:
I appear to get good flow out the bleeders. Get a drip curtain coming off the backside when they're wide open (at least on a couple). Would be great if CAT had done it where the bleeder orifices faced out instead of towards the engine. I know the lifter adjustment is out since #1 (only one measured so far) plunger appears to read more more than a crude 1.750...probably closer to 1.825 since the butt end of the caliper sits half way between the upper mounting face & inside of the lifter housing.
What I'm going to do is get the thing running again & have all 4 lines safely directed outward so fuel stream cam be observed & still get to the pinion lever.
To be sure I'm on the same page. By "rocker covers" this means to remove the 4 covers on the side of the motor that decomp armatures go through?

When left cranking for extended time even in RUN then disengaging then re-engaging the pinion it will briefly sound like it's under compression...a brief moment of lugging before the pony evens back out. But no discernible difference between START & RUN.
((NOTE: Checked when lever is fully in the RUN detent there is still about 1/8in of slop in the rack pivots in the direction of the RUN pull & about 1/4in total of back & forth from the perspective of the arm ends.))

Previous few times it ran it took a long time with the lever in RUN before it would start coughing smoke & eventually catch enough to stay running. When it did it seemed to run fine. However this time I don't get ANY smoke out the stack.

When originally purchased the PO (an older guy) said "don't use this lever" when referring to the decompression & thought it odd when learned the proper start sequence. So first few times it was started the lever was left in RUN but even then it took most of a pony tank to start.

I'm fully expecting a problem on the fuel side since the lifter rack alone is already suspect. Before making any adjustments will pull the injectors so they can show me what they're being delivered. Good thing I nabbed that socket while it was still available.
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Wed, Feb 26, 2025 7:20 AM
josh
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Reply to RuralTowner:
To be sure I'm on the same page. By "rocker covers" this means to remove the 4 covers on the side of the motor that decomp armatures go through?

When left cranking for extended time even in RUN then disengaging then re-engaging the pinion it will briefly sound like it's under compression...a brief moment of lugging before the pony evens back out. But no discernible difference between START & RUN.
((NOTE: Checked when lever is fully in the RUN detent there is still about 1/8in of slop in the rack pivots in the direction of the RUN pull & about 1/4in total of back & forth from the perspective of the arm ends.))

Previous few times it ran it took a long time with the lever in RUN before it would start coughing smoke & eventually catch enough to stay running. When it did it seemed to run fine. However this time I don't get ANY smoke out the stack.

When originally purchased the PO (an older guy) said "don't use this lever" when referring to the decompression & thought it odd when learned the proper start sequence. So first few times it was started the lever was left in RUN but even then it took most of a pony tank to start.

I'm fully expecting a problem on the fuel side since the lifter rack alone is already suspect. Before making any adjustments will pull the injectors so they can show me what they're being delivered. Good thing I nabbed that socket while it was still available.
Is the lifter rack free? meaning does it move freely when you move the throttle lever?
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Wed, Feb 26, 2025 8:49 AM
neil
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Reply to josh:
Is the lifter rack free? meaning does it move freely when you move the throttle lever?
The rocker cover is topmost on the engine, held down by either 2 or 4 nuts (can't remember which) and lifts off to reveal the valve rockers. If there is no discernable difference between no compression and full compression, then I think you have a valve train issue. It should noticeably load on compression. The pony, if running correctly, will still run at the same rpm because it's governed, but it should sound like it's working much harder and the main engine should "feel" like it's pumping against compression. If you don't have any of that, then I suspect you're not actually getting compression. By removing the valve cover, you can check that the decompression mechanism is working correctly. It should not hold down the exhaust valves when set to Run - there should be clearance at all times. Maybe a couple of photos and a video will help us verify operation
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Wed, Feb 26, 2025 11:21 AM
neil
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Reply to neil:
The rocker cover is topmost on the engine, held down by either 2 or 4 nuts (can't remember which) and lifts off to reveal the valve rockers. If there is no discernable difference between no compression and full compression, then I think you have a valve train issue. It should noticeably load on compression. The pony, if running correctly, will still run at the same rpm because it's governed, but it should sound like it's working much harder and the main engine should "feel" like it's pumping against compression. If you don't have any of that, then I suspect you're not actually getting compression. By removing the valve cover, you can check that the decompression mechanism is working correctly. It should not hold down the exhaust valves when set to Run - there should be clearance at all times. Maybe a couple of photos and a video will help us verify operation
And what Josh wrote too : ) You should see smoke when it's set to Run, even with the throttle closed. With the throttle fully open, it should make a nasty amount of smoke, confirming that a) you're getting fuel into the combustion chamber and b) that you have sufficient compression to get it to burn somewhat
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Wed, Feb 26, 2025 11:22 AM
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