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Cat 955K hydraulics.

Cat 955K hydraulics.

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stuartmarshall
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Hi all, I have a question which shouldnt be to difficult for those in the know!

I have a pump, tank, and tilt cylinders off a 955K machine. I have repurposed these for a wood splitter.

Have pump hooked up to tractor PTO, and have plumbed the tilt cylinders into the original spool for the lift cylinders. The tank is 4 spool. Everything is plumbed correctly, pump is turning correct direction (counterclockwise when viewed from shaft end).

Now my problem is such: I move the lever corresponding to the spool im using and nothing happens. I could initially get retraction. Will not extend the rams. Upon taking off cover to expose inside of tank, the oil is dead still while pump is running, and the base of tank is completely submerged. I put 60L of oil in the tank.

Im stumped as to what is going on, not that im a hydraulic technician by any means. The only things i can think of thats different to ordinary operation is that there is less oil in the tank, would the fact that the baffle isnt submerged be doing something?, and that the pump is doing 540rpm. Its a vane pump.

I notice there is no air vent to the tank, and its very heavily constructed, does this mean it is some sort of closed system, that pressurises the entire tank, and therefore needs more oil or something??

Everything was apparently working on the wrecked machine. Im stumped as to what is causing this and why its not working. Any help would be hugely appreciated!! Thanks.ll
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Wed, Jul 18, 2018 5:17 PM
Old Magnet
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Oil level should be maintained in the sight glass.
What viscosity oil are you using? Should be SAE 10W.
Original pump spec is 50.4 gpm, 1,000psi @ 1830 rpm with engine at 2000 rpm.
1/2 speed rating (915 rpm) is 24.3 gpm @ 1,000 psi.
Cat runs closed system to utilize air cushion to limit hydraulic shock.
At 540 rpm I'd say your running the pump too slow.
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Wed, Jul 18, 2018 9:43 PM
stuartmarshall
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Oil level should be maintained in the sight glass.
What viscosity oil are you using? Should be SAE 10W.
Original pump spec is 50.4 gpm, 1,000psi @ 1830 rpm with engine at 2000 rpm.
1/2 speed rating (915 rpm) is 24.3 gpm @ 1,000 psi.
Cat runs closed system to utilize air cushion to limit hydraulic shock.
At 540 rpm I'd say your running the pump too slow.
Hi old magnet cheers for the info. Yes I understand pump might be going to slow, I’ve got some photocopies of hydraulic system specs out of the manual.

What I don’t understand though is that surely when the pump is running, regardless of speed there would still be a marginal amount of oil flow, given there is no load? Or is there a sort of check valve that will only open and allow pump flow at a certain pressure?

Yes I noticed the sight glass, which is abouve the baffle. Would it need to be fill up to there to allow any operation?

I guess I’m just wondering if I can get by with only adding more oil, or only increasing pump speed.

I do eventually intend to gear up the pump to get better cycle speed, just hooked it up as so to check everything works.
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Thu, Jul 19, 2018 5:41 AM
josh
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Reply to stuartmarshall:
Hi old magnet cheers for the info. Yes I understand pump might be going to slow, I’ve got some photocopies of hydraulic system specs out of the manual.

What I don’t understand though is that surely when the pump is running, regardless of speed there would still be a marginal amount of oil flow, given there is no load? Or is there a sort of check valve that will only open and allow pump flow at a certain pressure?

Yes I noticed the sight glass, which is abouve the baffle. Would it need to be fill up to there to allow any operation?

I guess I’m just wondering if I can get by with only adding more oil, or only increasing pump speed.

I do eventually intend to gear up the pump to get better cycle speed, just hooked it up as so to check everything works.
It is my understand that 500 RPM is the approximate minimum speed that these vane pumps were designed to produce pressure at, below a certain speed there is not enough pressure on the back sides of the vanes to make them seat and produce proper pressure.
One of the reasons this type of pump were used on the old Cat's is, that there was no back pressure on the system when starting and thus making the engine easier to start, versus a gear type pump that would be producing pressure right from the start.
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Thu, Jul 19, 2018 6:06 AM
ccjersey
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I would suspect the pump outlet is deadheaded or pump cartridge is shot as in no vanes left if its not moving any oil.

It is certainly an open center pump and should pump oil anytime the shaft is turning. When you pull a spool, the low pressure circulation is blocked and diverted to one side of the piston, making the cylinder move.

I wonder if you might have the cylinder(s) hooked up to oppose each other or the hoses hooked to ports of two different spools. I have seen the same situation by cross connecting hoses from farm implements.

Also possible that you have a linkage problem and a spool is not in neutral.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Thu, Jul 19, 2018 6:12 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to ccjersey:
I would suspect the pump outlet is deadheaded or pump cartridge is shot as in no vanes left if its not moving any oil.

It is certainly an open center pump and should pump oil anytime the shaft is turning. When you pull a spool, the low pressure circulation is blocked and diverted to one side of the piston, making the cylinder move.

I wonder if you might have the cylinder(s) hooked up to oppose each other or the hoses hooked to ports of two different spools. I have seen the same situation by cross connecting hoses from farm implements.

Also possible that you have a linkage problem and a spool is not in neutral.
Vane type pumps are not a positive displacement pump, they depend on a certain amount of centrifugal force and pressure to load the vanes as Josh stated above. They have a very steep rpm to displacement curve and drop off rapidly below certain rpm. They are also sensitive to oil temperature and viscosity. They do not pump at all with high viscosity oil and cold temperatures.
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Thu, Jul 19, 2018 6:22 AM
stuartmarshall
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Vane type pumps are not a positive displacement pump, they depend on a certain amount of centrifugal force and pressure to load the vanes as Josh stated above. They have a very steep rpm to displacement curve and drop off rapidly below certain rpm. They are also sensitive to oil temperature and viscosity. They do not pump at all with high viscosity oil and cold temperatures.
Thanks all for the help.

Okay, so upon checking the oil is “Castrol hyspin aws 46” I’m pretty sure that means it’s 46 weight oil. So that’s probably a large part of my issue. I bought the oil on discount several months back, figured an old machine wouldn’t be too fussy!

I guess that’s the reason why the pump is apparently producing no flow.

But now just wondering whether it does need to be up to sight glass in order to function.

Second queustion, what is the system pressure for this machine? I always assumed it was 3,000 psi but after some research I’m a bit doubtful.
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Thu, Jul 19, 2018 6:59 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to stuartmarshall:
Thanks all for the help.

Okay, so upon checking the oil is “Castrol hyspin aws 46” I’m pretty sure that means it’s 46 weight oil. So that’s probably a large part of my issue. I bought the oil on discount several months back, figured an old machine wouldn’t be too fussy!

I guess that’s the reason why the pump is apparently producing no flow.

But now just wondering whether it does need to be up to sight glass in order to function.

Second queustion, what is the system pressure for this machine? I always assumed it was 3,000 psi but after some research I’m a bit doubtful.
ISO 46 is equivalent to SAE 20 wt engine oil.
I've used that in some vane pump applications and got nothing until the oil warmed up.
Recommended SAE 10 wt is equivalent to ISO 22/32. ISO 32 is about as high a viscosity as you want to go (for tired pumps).
As I stated in the 955K pump specs, system pressure is 1,000 psi.
The tilt cylinders are 5" diameter, a good size for splitter application but need 2,500 to 3,000 psi source to make the tonnage for splitting big stuff. I doubt the cylinders are rated for that pressure.
I run 5" cylinder on my splitter at 2,500 psi at about 2,500 rpm with two stage gear pump (3,000 psi & 3,600 rpm capability). Haven't seen the log yet that would stop it.
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Thu, Jul 19, 2018 9:48 AM
stuartmarshall
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Reply to Old Magnet:
ISO 46 is equivalent to SAE 20 wt engine oil.
I've used that in some vane pump applications and got nothing until the oil warmed up.
Recommended SAE 10 wt is equivalent to ISO 22/32. ISO 32 is about as high a viscosity as you want to go (for tired pumps).
As I stated in the 955K pump specs, system pressure is 1,000 psi.
The tilt cylinders are 5" diameter, a good size for splitter application but need 2,500 to 3,000 psi source to make the tonnage for splitting big stuff. I doubt the cylinders are rated for that pressure.
I run 5" cylinder on my splitter at 2,500 psi at about 2,500 rpm with two stage gear pump (3,000 psi & 3,600 rpm capability). Haven't seen the log yet that would stop it.
Ah sorry I see now where you said 1000 psi. The cat guy said it was 3k and a few others I spoke to. This is a “high production” splitter, will split 8-9 peices per stroke. The two cylinders are in parrallel with each other, pushing a sled contained by two parallel columns, which in turn pushes the round into the knives.

If it doesn’t have enough power I can just trade the cylinders I’ve got for bigger ones or add a third.

was just made aware our 2010 jd has 1000 pto speed, I’ll hook it up to that and see if anything functions. If not I guess I’ll be sourcing some different oil.
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Thu, Jul 19, 2018 11:14 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to stuartmarshall:
Ah sorry I see now where you said 1000 psi. The cat guy said it was 3k and a few others I spoke to. This is a “high production” splitter, will split 8-9 peices per stroke. The two cylinders are in parrallel with each other, pushing a sled contained by two parallel columns, which in turn pushes the round into the knives.

If it doesn’t have enough power I can just trade the cylinders I’ve got for bigger ones or add a third.

was just made aware our 2010 jd has 1000 pto speed, I’ll hook it up to that and see if anything functions. If not I guess I’ll be sourcing some different oil.
Would like to see some pictures of that set up!
What type wood are you splitting, Gum??
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Thu, Jul 19, 2018 11:57 AM
AJ.
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Would like to see some pictures of that set up!
What type wood are you splitting, Gum??
I would rule out the RPM as I often raised the bucket up out of the way on the starter motor when the engine would not start,what I would first establish is the direction correct, look for an arrow on the pump, I forget the rotation as the pump was driven off the drive train,if the direction is correct the next thing to check is the pump getting oil,it is,take the in line off from the tank valve,if you have the tank open hold it there and get helper to turn the tractor engine over on the starter and see if the pump will pump oil,if it does not it will save you the trouble of going through the valve in the tank,I had a lot of those machines in my catchment area in their day and as far as I remember it was 10W engine oil we used in the hydraulics,oil is not your problem.
AJ
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Thu, Jul 19, 2018 7:59 PM
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