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74A1 questions

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Ironman1
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First off, hello to everyone here.
I have an older D6 I just bought last fall. This machine has an engine problem, and great running gear, so I took a flyer on it. The engine smokes black under load and has less power then it should. The previous owner threw money at it to see if any would stick, but the problem remained.
He told me the engine quit and would not start, so he rebuilt the injection pump, put in new bullets in the injectors, and did a valve set.
It still would not start. Burned out the starter, so he replaced that and a couple brand new 8D batteries were put in.
Upon further investigation, he found the turbo completely plugged with carbon til no exhaust could get through.
So he cleaned out the carbon, the engine started, and he assumed it had a burnt valve and decided to sell it.
So.
Today I cracked the injector lines and found #4 to be dead, and raw diesel weeping from the exhaust turbo gasket. I pulled the valve cover and backed off the rocker shaft til the valves were all closed. took out #4 injector, and put air to the cylinder, and it blew out the exhaust. So I took the head off.

I know burnt valves are rare in diesels, but this one sure was crudded up. Upon removing the intake and exhaust valves from #4, I wire brushed off the crud and the seats and valves looked serviceable.

The valve guides are egg shaped on almost all of them, so I need valve guides.

So here is my question. I am told by the seller that this is a D333T engine, and I need to really verify that somehow. I also need to know the current number for valve guides. I have yet to mike the stems, but I may need valves too.

Any help is much appreciated. Thanks
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Wed, Feb 22, 2017 10:18 AM
Old Magnet
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Definitely is a D333T engine (4-1/2" bore). Valve guides are #5M8023 until you get to s/n 74A2467-up where they change to #5S4507. Early guides are flanged. Replaced by 4N3668 ( no flange)
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Wed, Feb 22, 2017 10:57 AM
Wombat
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Definitely is a D333T engine (4-1/2" bore). Valve guides are #5M8023 until you get to s/n 74A2467-up where they change to #5S4507. Early guides are flanged. Replaced by 4N3668 ( no flange)
I would replace the thermostat, I also think maybe engine has been idled a lot and or the wrong type of oil been used.
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Wed, Feb 22, 2017 11:22 AM
catsilver
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Reply to Wombat:
I would replace the thermostat, I also think maybe engine has been idled a lot and or the wrong type of oil been used.
So where did all he oil to make excess carbon come from? Down the valve guides, past the turbo bearing seals or up past the rings? Perhaps Wombat has it right too, cool running with excess idling or light loads will contribute to this problem.
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Wed, Feb 22, 2017 5:54 PM
ccjersey
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It's a slippery slope that leads to a complete overhaul at the bottom, but I would be going to some effort to assess the cylinder/ring wear while the head is off. Unless someone replaced the liners, pistons etc and ignored the head completely, the engine is very likely in need of an overhaul. I have a complete set of STANDARD main and rod bearings I would like to get rid of if you find your crankshaft is not worn enough to justify a regrind.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Wed, Feb 22, 2017 7:15 PM
Ironman1
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Reply to ccjersey:
It's a slippery slope that leads to a complete overhaul at the bottom, but I would be going to some effort to assess the cylinder/ring wear while the head is off. Unless someone replaced the liners, pistons etc and ignored the head completely, the engine is very likely in need of an overhaul. I have a complete set of STANDARD main and rod bearings I would like to get rid of if you find your crankshaft is not worn enough to justify a regrind.
OK. further info, and thanks all for the responses.

Oil pressure is good and pressure comes up as soon as you crank the engine, before it even fires.
There is no blowby to see at high idle.
Where did the crud come from, could be the egg shaped guide. Or, as I know too little of the history, it could have had a bad injector-- there is a reason he suddenly changed them all and did the pump when the engine quit. I think if it was burning oil in that quantity there should be some panting out the breather.

I will be replacing the thermostat, it looks like there are signs of cold running. Bores are shiny with no wear ridge to be felt.
Nozzle Tips should be 8N4694, but it has 8N5986 in it. I don't know what effect this would have.
Have included pictures of the engine plate, and I don't know if there are any numbers that should come after the Series C or not.
Attachment
Attachment
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Wed, Feb 22, 2017 9:08 PM
neil
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Reply to Ironman1:
OK. further info, and thanks all for the responses.

Oil pressure is good and pressure comes up as soon as you crank the engine, before it even fires.
There is no blowby to see at high idle.
Where did the crud come from, could be the egg shaped guide. Or, as I know too little of the history, it could have had a bad injector-- there is a reason he suddenly changed them all and did the pump when the engine quit. I think if it was burning oil in that quantity there should be some panting out the breather.

I will be replacing the thermostat, it looks like there are signs of cold running. Bores are shiny with no wear ridge to be felt.
Nozzle Tips should be 8N4694, but it has 8N5986 in it. I don't know what effect this would have.
Have included pictures of the engine plate, and I don't know if there are any numbers that should come after the Series C or not.
Attachment
Attachment
Worn valve guides can let a large volume of oil past, and this ends up as coked oil (my term) choking up intake and exhaust manifolds. I just cleaned out my D2 5U's exhaust manifold. #4 had only a finger-size opening left in it before I cleaned it - #1 wasn't much better. Did the exact same thing on my wife's Audi except on that engine, it was the intake manifold that was choked. I'd guess that a lot of burned oil gets wrongly attributed to piston rings when it may have been the guides. Good thing about doing guides is that it's easy, cheapish, and also can improve your compression pressures if the valves weren't seating properly.
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Wed, Feb 22, 2017 10:04 PM
Old Magnet
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Reply to neil:
Worn valve guides can let a large volume of oil past, and this ends up as coked oil (my term) choking up intake and exhaust manifolds. I just cleaned out my D2 5U's exhaust manifold. #4 had only a finger-size opening left in it before I cleaned it - #1 wasn't much better. Did the exact same thing on my wife's Audi except on that engine, it was the intake manifold that was choked. I'd guess that a lot of burned oil gets wrongly attributed to piston rings when it may have been the guides. Good thing about doing guides is that it's easy, cheapish, and also can improve your compression pressures if the valves weren't seating properly.
On your injectors....
74A1 to 1574 originally used 180 deg. counter bored nozzles Valve Service Group #3S6638 which contained #2S4442 nozzles.
74A1575-up originally used 90 deg. counter bored nozzles Valve Service Group #8M1584 which contained #5M4086 nozzles.
There seems to be a lot of confusion out there on whether nozzles are referred to by their correct part number or Valve Service Group part number. What reference I have may indicate your 8N5986 is a 2S4442 equivalent but I am not 100% sure. The 8N4694 does not appear to be a candidate.
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Wed, Feb 22, 2017 11:39 PM
Ironman1
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Reply to Old Magnet:
On your injectors....
74A1 to 1574 originally used 180 deg. counter bored nozzles Valve Service Group #3S6638 which contained #2S4442 nozzles.
74A1575-up originally used 90 deg. counter bored nozzles Valve Service Group #8M1584 which contained #5M4086 nozzles.
There seems to be a lot of confusion out there on whether nozzles are referred to by their correct part number or Valve Service Group part number. What reference I have may indicate your 8N5986 is a 2S4442 equivalent but I am not 100% sure. The 8N4694 does not appear to be a candidate.
Thanks for all the replies.
I was able to place an order today for parts, the cat valve guides were $20 each, and my favorite aftermarket dealer Pollard was selling them for $12. Cat did have the thermostat for $99, pretty rich but.... and they wanted $703 for a upper gasket kit. They have the chinese parts for $400 so I got them.
The cat part numbers are:
water regulator 2S4044
head gasket kit 4380179
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Thu, Feb 23, 2017 10:12 AM
Ironman1
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Reply to Old Magnet:
On your injectors....
74A1 to 1574 originally used 180 deg. counter bored nozzles Valve Service Group #3S6638 which contained #2S4442 nozzles.
74A1575-up originally used 90 deg. counter bored nozzles Valve Service Group #8M1584 which contained #5M4086 nozzles.
There seems to be a lot of confusion out there on whether nozzles are referred to by their correct part number or Valve Service Group part number. What reference I have may indicate your 8N5986 is a 2S4442 equivalent but I am not 100% sure. The 8N4694 does not appear to be a candidate.
[quote="Old Magnet"]On your injectors....
74A1 to 1574 originally used 180 deg. counter bored nozzles Valve Service Group #3S6638 which contained #2S4442 nozzles.
74A1575-up originally used 90 deg. counter bored nozzles Valve Service Group #8M1584 which contained #5M4086 nozzles.
There seems to be a lot of confusion out there on whether nozzles are referred to by their correct part number or Valve Service Group part number. What reference I have may indicate your 8N5986 is a 2S4442 equivalent but I am not 100% sure. The 8N4694 does not appear to be a candidate.[/quote]

Old Magnet, you seem to have a bible with all the old numbers.
Wondering where to download a PDF parts manual for this critter. I see Cat sells chinese parts as Cat Classic but the numbers are different and they do have a cross catalog to download, but you need a original number to start with.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. Voltare
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Fri, Mar 3, 2017 10:00 PM
neil
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Reply to Ironman1:
[quote="Old Magnet"]On your injectors....
74A1 to 1574 originally used 180 deg. counter bored nozzles Valve Service Group #3S6638 which contained #2S4442 nozzles.
74A1575-up originally used 90 deg. counter bored nozzles Valve Service Group #8M1584 which contained #5M4086 nozzles.
There seems to be a lot of confusion out there on whether nozzles are referred to by their correct part number or Valve Service Group part number. What reference I have may indicate your 8N5986 is a 2S4442 equivalent but I am not 100% sure. The 8N4694 does not appear to be a candidate.[/quote]

Old Magnet, you seem to have a bible with all the old numbers.
Wondering where to download a PDF parts manual for this critter. I see Cat sells chinese parts as Cat Classic but the numbers are different and they do have a cross catalog to download, but you need a original number to start with.
Hi Ironman,
be wary of those classic parts - I bought the large nut that retains the D2 pony pinion shaft to the bearings as a classic part, and the threaded diameter was so far off that I reinstalled the old nut instead, warts and all. Moreover, the classic part was a "c-nut" rather than a regular hex nut.
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Fri, Mar 3, 2017 10:17 PM
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