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5J D2 fuel starvation

5J D2 fuel starvation

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CatsRgr8
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I have a very mistreated D2 Dozer, 5J1404 SP 50". The farmer I bought it from had given up on it. It was days from being scrapped. The pony wouldn't run, he couldn't get the diesel started by towing it, and he had twisted off the right brake adjustment bolt so it was difficult to even get it to where it could be winched onto my trailer. Instead of using a wrench on the injector nuts (or the pony flywheel nut) someone had just used a blunt cold chisel to turn the nuts. Adjustments that had been stripped or broken had been welded, etc. It has been a real orphan. So sad !

After rebuilding the mag and rebuilding the carb, the pony now starts with one pull. The broken brake band adjusting bolt is still to be dealt with, but I have been able to start the diesel a total of three times. By holding in the pinion (I know, I know), and using plenty of ether, I have been able to let it hit on one, then two then three cylinders until it would keep running, BUT only with the throttle wide open. As soon as the throttle is reduced to even half way on the quadrant, it dies. I have checked to make sure the rack is free and the pumps are correctly meshed with the rack.

When cranking, I see white smoke coming out of the exhaust, but not very much. I have installed new fuel, new filters, had the injectors checked out by a diesel shop, and the fuel pressure is in the green when I have had it running. I have bled the system as set out in the Owner's Manual several times.

But one thing I noticed. When I open the bleeders on each pump, I get a surge of fuel for half a second, then just a slight trickle. IS THAT NORMAL?

If the engine will not fire, is it possible to load up the cylinders to where it is too flooded to start? When I give it a shot of ether, I get immediate black smoke and it fires, but as soon as that charge has burned, it quits firing. There was very little or no oil in the pump. Does it sound like my pumps are shot? Can they be carefully cleaned, or only by a shop? Are rebuilds available? Thanks for whatever help you can provide
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Wed, Sep 28, 2016 12:13 PM
ccjersey
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If the injection pump camshaft lobes were worn flat you might not get much fuel delivered. Don't know if i have ever seen the spec for lift, but there must be one. The other part of that is setting the timing of injection by adjusting the lifters with a depth mic. Could do the total lift measurement with the same mic.

The shade tree mechaninic method to check this is to remove the injectors and reinstall them to the lines either pointing straight up or turn the lines out toward the track and point the injectors down. Then you turn the diesel with the pony, open the throttle and observe the spray pattern for volume as well as a fine even spray with no dripping.

Have you checked that the rack is moving and staying toward the full fuel direction while the engine is turning? If you are having to hold pinion in, you may need some help!

I think if the pumps are worn out they will be leaking and there will be a steady drip out of the tell-tale line that drains the injection pump housing.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Wed, Sep 28, 2016 10:18 PM
cojhl2
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[quote="CatsRgr8"]
But one thing I noticed. When I open the bleeders on each pump, I get a surge of fuel for half a second, then just a slight trickle. IS THAT NORMAL?

I[/quote]

Good observation. I'm not too sure but that sounds like air in the injection system.
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Wed, Sep 28, 2016 10:23 PM
mrsmackpaul
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Reply to cojhl2:
[quote="CatsRgr8"]
But one thing I noticed. When I open the bleeders on each pump, I get a surge of fuel for half a second, then just a slight trickle. IS THAT NORMAL?

I[/quote]

Good observation. I'm not too sure but that sounds like air in the injection system.
white smoke means lack of compression not lack of fuel so maybe compression test the motor
you will need a compression tester for a diesel motor as they have a lot higher compression than a petrol motor I would expect nothing less than 400 psi
maybe just try squirting some oil down the bores and give it a go if it hasnt be running for a long time the rings might be stuck in the piston and might come loose if you can get it to run for a few minutes
Or may just need a valve grind after sitting for a long time

Paul
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Thu, Sep 29, 2016 1:07 AM
neil
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Reply to mrsmackpaul:
white smoke means lack of compression not lack of fuel so maybe compression test the motor
you will need a compression tester for a diesel motor as they have a lot higher compression than a petrol motor I would expect nothing less than 400 psi
maybe just try squirting some oil down the bores and give it a go if it hasnt be running for a long time the rings might be stuck in the piston and might come loose if you can get it to run for a few minutes
Or may just need a valve grind after sitting for a long time

Paul
I'd have thought that with a serviceable fuel transfer pump, you should get a reasonable flow out of the injection pump bleeders, although I have seen it written that the fuel pressure is normally pretty low at cranking speed, but still there should be a flow, not a dribble. One way you can check on the transfer pump is to fit a cap over the fuel tank lid, and put no more than a couple of psi air pressure in there (cut the valve out of an old inner tube, or do what I did and pick up a 4" rubber cap from Home Depot, drill a hole in it, and fit a tubeless air valve to it, and then fit the whole thing on the tank with a clamp. Put some pressure on it and then open the bleeder. If the flow is strong, then you might have a fuel transfer pump issue at cranking speed. Check the fuel inlet adaptor on the bottom of the fuel transfer pump - it has a spring and stop in there that relieves pressure. If the spring is weak or broken, or the stop is not sealing well, that might be your problem at cranking speed (but it's good enough for running speed). I checked the service manual and didn't find a spec for the injection lifter travel unfortunately.
Theres a fellow on here, Bill Walter, that rebuilds injectors and I think pumps (or at least can check them out for you). Contact Bill and see what he thinks.
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Thu, Sep 29, 2016 6:46 AM
CatsRgr8
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Reply to neil:
I'd have thought that with a serviceable fuel transfer pump, you should get a reasonable flow out of the injection pump bleeders, although I have seen it written that the fuel pressure is normally pretty low at cranking speed, but still there should be a flow, not a dribble. One way you can check on the transfer pump is to fit a cap over the fuel tank lid, and put no more than a couple of psi air pressure in there (cut the valve out of an old inner tube, or do what I did and pick up a 4" rubber cap from Home Depot, drill a hole in it, and fit a tubeless air valve to it, and then fit the whole thing on the tank with a clamp. Put some pressure on it and then open the bleeder. If the flow is strong, then you might have a fuel transfer pump issue at cranking speed. Check the fuel inlet adaptor on the bottom of the fuel transfer pump - it has a spring and stop in there that relieves pressure. If the spring is weak or broken, or the stop is not sealing well, that might be your problem at cranking speed (but it's good enough for running speed). I checked the service manual and didn't find a spec for the injection lifter travel unfortunately.
Theres a fellow on here, Bill Walter, that rebuilds injectors and I think pumps (or at least can check them out for you). Contact Bill and see what he thinks.
The comment about the white smoke being poor compression and not fuel surprised me. I thought white mist/smoke/vapor was a sign the engine was getting at least some fuel. I'll try everything suggested. I know the rack is moving and that the pumps are timed to the rack, but I don't know about pump cam lobe wear. When I had the engine running, the fuel pressure was at the top of the green, nearly pegged.

Ralph
CastRgr8
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Thu, Sep 29, 2016 9:22 AM
neil
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Reply to CatsRgr8:
The comment about the white smoke being poor compression and not fuel surprised me. I thought white mist/smoke/vapor was a sign the engine was getting at least some fuel. I'll try everything suggested. I know the rack is moving and that the pumps are timed to the rack, but I don't know about pump cam lobe wear. When I had the engine running, the fuel pressure was at the top of the green, nearly pegged.

Ralph
CastRgr8
White smoke is also air in the fuel, so you might have a couple of things going on
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Thu, Sep 29, 2016 9:28 AM
cojhl2
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Reply to CatsRgr8:
The comment about the white smoke being poor compression and not fuel surprised me. I thought white mist/smoke/vapor was a sign the engine was getting at least some fuel. I'll try everything suggested. I know the rack is moving and that the pumps are timed to the rack, but I don't know about pump cam lobe wear. When I had the engine running, the fuel pressure was at the top of the green, nearly pegged.

Ralph
CastRgr8
[quote="CatsRgr8"]The comment about the white smoke being poor compression and not fuel surprised me. I thought white mist/smoke/vapor was a sign the engine was getting at least some fuel. I'll try everything suggested. I know the rack is moving and that the pumps are timed to the rack, but I don't know about pump cam lobe wear. When I had the engine running, the fuel pressure was at the top of the green, nearly pegged.
Ralph
CastRgr8[/quote]

I think that can be true even though there is air in the system.
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Thu, Sep 29, 2016 10:36 AM
mrsmackpaul
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Reply to CatsRgr8:
The comment about the white smoke being poor compression and not fuel surprised me. I thought white mist/smoke/vapor was a sign the engine was getting at least some fuel. I'll try everything suggested. I know the rack is moving and that the pumps are timed to the rack, but I don't know about pump cam lobe wear. When I had the engine running, the fuel pressure was at the top of the green, nearly pegged.

Ralph
CastRgr8
[quote="CatsRgr8"]The comment about the white smoke being poor compression and not fuel surprised me. I thought white mist/smoke/vapor was a sign the engine was getting at least some fuel. I'll try everything suggested. I know the rack is moving and that the pumps are timed to the rack, but I don't know about pump cam lobe wear. When I had the engine running, the fuel pressure was at the top of the green, nearly pegged.

Ralph
CastRgr8[/quote]

What you say confirms you are getting the full fuel flow and pressure from what you have said if I am understanding this correctly
All to often people change stuff or make a whole lot of adjustments with out testing and a few simple tests can confirm what or what isnt the problem with out any adjustments or changing any parts and will most times make a good out come a lot quicker in coming
These are just my thoughts and the processes I use daily and are by no means the only way to find your answer but one thing for sure that is indisputable is testing things properly is far cheaper and quicker than changing settings and parts and hoping for a good out come

Is it compression ? I dunno, but there is only one way to know for sure

seeya

Paul
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Thu, Sep 29, 2016 5:43 PM
ccjersey
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When you see white smoke out of the exhaust during starting, it usually means there is at least some fuel being injected, but not burning. Have seen one or two that had a little smoke but wouldn't run because the throttle was set too low, actually was at the shutoff position still

When you pull the throttle to wide open, you should get a thick cloud of mosquito choking white smoke with puffs of black when a cylinder hits.

When the tractor was running, what did the exhaust look like?
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Thu, Sep 29, 2016 6:35 PM
1951D2
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Reply to ccjersey:
When you see white smoke out of the exhaust during starting, it usually means there is at least some fuel being injected, but not burning. Have seen one or two that had a little smoke but wouldn't run because the throttle was set too low, actually was at the shutoff position still

When you pull the throttle to wide open, you should get a thick cloud of mosquito choking white smoke with puffs of black when a cylinder hits.

When the tractor was running, what did the exhaust look like?
This sounds like late timing from the pumps. I would suggest checking the pump height first. Does not take much time to do.
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Fri, Sep 30, 2016 6:52 AM
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