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1944 D7 4T Cat

1944 D7 4T Cat

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1972RedNeck
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Farm auction coming up on the 3rd of October has a Navy/Army surplus D7 4T. Called on it, runs good, pony runs great but it was used as a farm cat for years and has a weak steering clutch. Also leaks a bit of water into the oil - owner says he drops a couple table spoons out of the pan every time before he starts it. Also pops out of first gear under hard pull unless you lightly hold it in gear.

Has an "American tractor company" hydraulic blade on it - cylinders are mounted parallel to the ground over the tracks. Undercarriage is supposedly right around 50%.

Anyways, there is a good possibility it will go for cheap. If it does, it would be a fun little tractor to have on the farm to play in the dirt with. My only real concern is the water in oil though. I have read that these D8800's are good at cracking heads. Cracked heads typically result in combustion gasses in the radiator though, right? Supposedly the coolant stays clean...

What are the chances that it is just a bad head gasket or liner O-ring? Or is it pretty much for sure that it has a cracked head?
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Sat, Sep 22, 2018 11:04 AM
ccjersey
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Throw some stopleak in it and it will cure anything but a cracked head. I agree with your logic, if the radiator doesn't have oil in it, most likely not a cracked head. Would it be the and of the world if you had to put a head on it? If so, just keep draining the pan every time.

The popping out of gear is the transmission interlock linkage between the main clutch lever and the transmission is out of adjustment or a pin has fallen out. Check adjustment by putting transmission in first gear and snapping main clutch in. Then attempt to pull gearshift into neutral. It should not be able to move into neutral. If it doesn't move into neutral, good but keep checking by keeping up the pressure on the shifter as you slowly move the clutch lever forwards. It should stay in gear until the clutch pops out. Lots of them have enough slop in the clutch linkage that the lever flops forward enough to release the transmission lock before the clutch disengages. Usually a little work on pins and clevises etc will tighten things up enough to stop that.

The steering clutch could be oily in which case washing the clutch be putting some solvent in the bottom of the clutch compartment and driving the tractor forward and backwards a little while while pulling the steering clutch on that side could clean the clutches enough to restore proper operation. If it does require replacement, I believe the same clutch is used on the D6 and D7, so there are quite a few used ones available or new should be available. The clutch can be unbolted and lifted out the top of the compartment to replace.

The biggest headache on the old tractors is the flexible links called thermoids connecting flywheel and clutch. Those things can let go suddenly and leave you sitting dead in a spot until the clutch top cover is removed and the links replaced. There is usually a lot of smoke and dust when they go out, but no real damage other than the links themselves.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Sat, Sep 22, 2018 7:48 PM
1972RedNeck
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Reply to ccjersey:
Throw some stopleak in it and it will cure anything but a cracked head. I agree with your logic, if the radiator doesn't have oil in it, most likely not a cracked head. Would it be the and of the world if you had to put a head on it? If so, just keep draining the pan every time.

The popping out of gear is the transmission interlock linkage between the main clutch lever and the transmission is out of adjustment or a pin has fallen out. Check adjustment by putting transmission in first gear and snapping main clutch in. Then attempt to pull gearshift into neutral. It should not be able to move into neutral. If it doesn't move into neutral, good but keep checking by keeping up the pressure on the shifter as you slowly move the clutch lever forwards. It should stay in gear until the clutch pops out. Lots of them have enough slop in the clutch linkage that the lever flops forward enough to release the transmission lock before the clutch disengages. Usually a little work on pins and clevises etc will tighten things up enough to stop that.

The steering clutch could be oily in which case washing the clutch be putting some solvent in the bottom of the clutch compartment and driving the tractor forward and backwards a little while while pulling the steering clutch on that side could clean the clutches enough to restore proper operation. If it does require replacement, I believe the same clutch is used on the D6 and D7, so there are quite a few used ones available or new should be available. The clutch can be unbolted and lifted out the top of the compartment to replace.

The biggest headache on the old tractors is the flexible links called thermoids connecting flywheel and clutch. Those things can let go suddenly and leave you sitting dead in a spot until the clutch top cover is removed and the links replaced. There is usually a lot of smoke and dust when they go out, but no real damage other than the links themselves.
[quote="ccjersey"]Throw some stopleak in it and it will cure anything but a cracked head. I agree with your logic, if the radiator doesn't have oil in it, most likely not a cracked head. Would it be the and of the world if you had to put a head on it? If so, just keep draining the pan every time.

The popping out of gear is the transmission interlock linkage between the main clutch lever and the transmission is out of adjustment or a pin has fallen out. Check adjustment by putting transmission in first gear and snapping main clutch in. Then attempt to pull gearshift into neutral. It should not be able to move into neutral. If it doesn't move into neutral, good but keep checking by keeping up the pressure on the shifter as you slowly move the clutch lever forwards. It should stay in gear until the clutch pops out. Lots of them have enough slop in the clutch linkage that the lever flops forward enough to release the transmission lock before the clutch disengages. Usually a little work on pins and clevises etc will tighten things up enough to stop that.

The steering clutch could be oily in which case washing the clutch be putting some solvent in the bottom of the clutch compartment and driving the tractor forward and backwards a little while while pulling the steering clutch on that side could clean the clutches enough to restore proper operation. If it does require replacement, I believe the same clutch is used on the D6 and D7, so there are quite a few used ones available or new should be available. The clutch can be unbolted and lifted out the top of the compartment to replace.

The biggest headache on the old tractors is the flexible links called thermoids connecting flywheel and clutch. Those things can let go suddenly and leave you sitting dead in a spot until the clutch top cover is removed and the links replaced. There is usually a lot of smoke and dust when they go out, but no real damage other than the links themselves.[/quote]

If the price is right, a new head would not be the end of the world, but are good heads readily available?

Agree with you on the interlock should be an easy fix.

Steering clutch is no big deal either, probably just worn out from being a farm cat as they tend to do the vast majority of turning in one direction.

Biggest thing is the engine. Don't want to buy it if it is not easily fixable (I.E. readily available, reasonably priced parts).
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Sat, Sep 22, 2018 11:08 PM
Andrew
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Reply to 1972RedNeck:
[quote="ccjersey"]Throw some stopleak in it and it will cure anything but a cracked head. I agree with your logic, if the radiator doesn't have oil in it, most likely not a cracked head. Would it be the and of the world if you had to put a head on it? If so, just keep draining the pan every time.

The popping out of gear is the transmission interlock linkage between the main clutch lever and the transmission is out of adjustment or a pin has fallen out. Check adjustment by putting transmission in first gear and snapping main clutch in. Then attempt to pull gearshift into neutral. It should not be able to move into neutral. If it doesn't move into neutral, good but keep checking by keeping up the pressure on the shifter as you slowly move the clutch lever forwards. It should stay in gear until the clutch pops out. Lots of them have enough slop in the clutch linkage that the lever flops forward enough to release the transmission lock before the clutch disengages. Usually a little work on pins and clevises etc will tighten things up enough to stop that.

The steering clutch could be oily in which case washing the clutch be putting some solvent in the bottom of the clutch compartment and driving the tractor forward and backwards a little while while pulling the steering clutch on that side could clean the clutches enough to restore proper operation. If it does require replacement, I believe the same clutch is used on the D6 and D7, so there are quite a few used ones available or new should be available. The clutch can be unbolted and lifted out the top of the compartment to replace.

The biggest headache on the old tractors is the flexible links called thermoids connecting flywheel and clutch. Those things can let go suddenly and leave you sitting dead in a spot until the clutch top cover is removed and the links replaced. There is usually a lot of smoke and dust when they go out, but no real damage other than the links themselves.[/quote]

If the price is right, a new head would not be the end of the world, but are good heads readily available?

Agree with you on the interlock should be an easy fix.

Steering clutch is no big deal either, probably just worn out from being a farm cat as they tend to do the vast majority of turning in one direction.

Biggest thing is the engine. Don't want to buy it if it is not easily fixable (I.E. readily available, reasonably priced parts).
Hello ccjersey.
At the risk of being picky and with respect, I feel I should comment your statement about thermoid links.
In a tractor with correctly aligned engine to gear box, the thermoid links are very reliable .The problem occurs with hard worked tractors with nose lifting for the bulldozer causing frame sagging and subsequent mis alignment . From the description, the tractor in question has track frame mounted blade lifting equipment . Frame sagging will be less likely with this set up.
When a thermoid link fails, as stated there will be much dust and smoke . Also severe vibration and banging noise. There is a risk of destroying the clutch housing . Also the broken link can break off the starter pinion .
If an "operator" some how failed to notice the severe banging , vibration and smoke and dust and continued to operate the machine,
until all the thermoid links were broken!!!!!!. Drive would not be lost, as the drive pins on the fly wheel would drive metal to metal against the clutch intermediate plate.
With the failure of a drive link, if the engine speed is dropped to the lowest revs possible the tractor can usually be slowly inched to a position suitable for the replacement link to be fitted. [ Out of a dam or away from a ash heap etc. ]
I have changed links without removing the clutch cover. Doing the job through the clutch lubrication and adjustment opening.

The first try for the water in the oil would be to tighten the head bolt tension.
Hope this is helpful and interesting to others.
A. K.
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Sun, Sep 23, 2018 5:17 AM
ccjersey
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Thanks for the corrections.

I expect you are right about the track frame mounted dozer being a lot easier on the alignment and making a difference in the life of the links.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Sun, Sep 23, 2018 6:42 AM
1972RedNeck
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Reply to ccjersey:
Thanks for the corrections.

I expect you are right about the track frame mounted dozer being a lot easier on the alignment and making a difference in the life of the links.
Did a little looking on Google for D8800 heads - found none.

If this cat were to have a cracked head, are replacements available? Not even going to bid on it if a cracked head renders the tractor a parts machine...
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Mon, Sep 24, 2018 3:36 AM
Andrew
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Reply to 1972RedNeck:
Did a little looking on Google for D8800 heads - found none.

If this cat were to have a cracked head, are replacements available? Not even going to bid on it if a cracked head renders the tractor a parts machine...
If the only symptom is a little water in the oil, it is unlikely to be a cracked head .
A cracked head will usually result in a pressurising of the cooling system.
Perhaps water out the exhaust on start up.
It is no help to you, but I have several heads here.
I am sure if you looked hard enough heads would be found in USA.
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Mon, Sep 24, 2018 4:31 AM
seyser
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Reply to Andrew:
If the only symptom is a little water in the oil, it is unlikely to be a cracked head .
A cracked head will usually result in a pressurising of the cooling system.
Perhaps water out the exhaust on start up.
It is no help to you, but I have several heads here.
I am sure if you looked hard enough heads would be found in USA.
There are heads out there. Still plenty of parts D7 machines around if you search.
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Mon, Sep 24, 2018 7:50 AM
1972RedNeck
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Reply to seyser:
There are heads out there. Still plenty of parts D7 machines around if you search.
A question for those who follow the antique Cat market in their area:

What would be the going price for a Cat like this in your area?
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Wed, Sep 26, 2018 5:16 AM
Casey Root
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Reply to 1972RedNeck:
A question for those who follow the antique Cat market in their area:

What would be the going price for a Cat like this in your area?
1972 Redneck.

A friends family had a post war 3T D7 that had some work done on the engine. Shortly after the work it sat in a cold night without antifreeze. It too accumulated water in the engine oil. Never enough to be very concerned about but still bothersome. They assumed that it had a cracked head but it never caused any problems other than a trace of water in the crankcase oil. An old time Cat mechanic thought he knew the problem and would solve it for them or no charge. He went to Cat and got a full set of grade 8 flat washers removed the head bolts, installed the new washers, re torqued the heads and ran it. It never got water in the engine oil again.

Might give it a try. It wouldn't cost much.
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Wed, Sep 26, 2018 6:43 AM
Kelly
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[quote="1972RedNeck"]Farm auction coming up on the 3rd of October has a Navy/Army surplus D7 4T. Called on it, runs good, pony runs great but it was used as a farm cat for years and has a weak steering clutch. Also leaks a bit of water into the oil - owner says he drops a couple table spoons out of the pan every time before he starts it. Also pops out of first gear under hard pull unless you lightly hold it in gear.

Has an "American tractor company" hydraulic blade on it - cylinders are mounted parallel to the ground over the tracks. Undercarriage is supposedly right around 50%.

Anyways, there is a good possibility it will go for cheap. If it does, it would be a fun little tractor to have on the farm to play in the dirt with. My only real concern is the water in oil though. I have read that these D8800's are good at cracking heads. Cracked heads typically result in combustion gasses in the radiator though, right? Supposedly the coolant stays clean...

What are the chances that it is just a bad head gasket or liner O-ring? Or is it pretty much for sure that it has a cracked head?[/quote]. http://www.acmoc.org/bb/showthread.php?22241-Repairing-Cracked-Cylinder-Heads. Kelly
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Wed, Sep 26, 2018 8:35 AM
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