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14 Grader 64C418
14 Grader 64C418
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Posts: 4434
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Thank you received: 10
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16 years 1 month ago #21419
by ccjersey
Have you tried putting the socket into the crankshaft pulley and then sticking a long extension through the hole in the bottom of the radiator to engage the socket? Not sure what size the head of the large bolt that holds the pulley on is, but there's a small lock bolt in the center with a 3/4" head that should keep it locked if you go backwards.
I don't think there's any chance of doing damage with a pipe wrench on the PTO shaft under the cab floor. It will turn the engine only if you have the transmission in neutral. Going from the 212, it has a spline in the center of the flywheel that the pto shaft engages. Should be plenty strong. I expect the lower brake drum shaft will be trying to turn the wheels no matter what you do with the gear shift sticks. Grader won't move very far just turning the engine enough to free it up though.
I'm not sure whether the air filter might be a dry type, but if it is an oil bath type, the bag will choke the air off to the engine. If there's any chance mud dauber wasps or other critters may have had access to the intake manifold, I would take things off until I found there were no mud nests for sure. I wish I had known they were getting in our D330C generator set (missing air filter restriction indicator left a 1/8" pipe thread hole open) Now I need to re-ring at least. Maybe you don't have the little buggers in Canada!
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time:D
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16 years 1 month ago #21593
by dads_cats
Thank you for your guidance, I'm just waking up from sleeping off a couple of turkey dinners.
The first day I started the oil pan drain dripping out there was some water coming out and I left it to drip, then it started freezing here overnight ever since. Today it is supposed to warm up again. I can put a heater under there if nothing else.
Located the small pto shaft coming out the front under the cab floor and was close to having a crude socket tool finished that will slip in between the radiator and onto the large nut (2-3/4") on the crank shaft pulley but will check to see if I can get a pipe wrench on the pto shaft.
Removing the top engine cover panel opened up that area to use an air hose and blow debris away from the injectors and valve covers as well as gets a better look at the starter motor. So far I'm hesitant to start pulling the injectors for fear of causing more problems but if they do wiggle out easy I can keep everything clean and be gentle with the fuel lines. Is it safe to use a long nozzle and blow out any debris in the cylinders first before putting loosening liquid in them? Sure be nice to look inside there with some sort of small camera.
The valve covers are not as daunting for me. Will stuck valves be evident by watching them for resistance while slowly turning the crankshaft?
There is a belt missing from what looks like a governor system on the front left of the starting motor. Will that belt need to be installed to use the starter motor and/or run the main engine?
First thought was the air filter just used oil in the bottom cap but there is also a large dry type paper filter in the middle section of the air cleaner. The seal around the bottom cap was not fully clamped together when it was last serviced and moisture had gotten in to leave a slab of mud in the bottom of the cap. I don't think it was mud dauber wasps but apparently we do have them in Canada. At first I thought there was suppose to be oil in the bottom cap and water seeping in had pushed the oil out but maybe it just got water and dust in there. The large dry filter looks like it had been replaced not long before the grader was parked but it has rust on it now. I put the rag over the opening to keep any critters from exploring until the air cleaner goes back together.
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16 years 1 month ago #21595
by ccjersey
The air cleaner is DRY only, you're right, the water got in and made mud in the bottom cover.
It wouldn't hurt to blow out the cylinders, especially if there's water in some of them. Just cover all the fuel system openings you have removed. Since it's wiggling back and forth a bit, probably most anything you put in there is going to be helpful. I would tend to stick to oily penetrating fluids like ATF and MM oil vs some of the carb cleaner products. On one that has water in it and won't budge, then KOO swears by carburetor cleaner to get beneath the water and loosen 'er right up.
If you do put anything in there, remember to get it turning over and blow out all of the liquid before reinstalling the injectors.
You can check valves before even turning the engine. Just press down on the stems of any that aren't already open all the way. You should be able to compress the spring and the valve should snap back closed. Be suspicious of any valves that have too much clearance. Cold clearance should be on the order of 0.011 to 0.012". Spec actually calls for 0.010 measured hot. There are 3 timing marks on the flywheel to set the valves when you get to that point.
The pony motor governor needs it's belt so it can respond to the load on the engine. Sometimes folks run them by hand, but it takes 3 hands to crank one already. You will want to oil the governor up so the arm moves freely and snaps the throttle of a stopped engine wide open when the control rod is pushed in all the way. Tthe control rod should pull the throttle closed and stretch the governor spring. Remove the 3 screws that hold the cover on the governor pulley and put about a teaspoon full of oil in the bottom of the pulley. If it won't work properly after that, you can take the back section off the governor and oil everything up inside there. Get it working back and forth freely before you try it so you don't overspeed the pony motor.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time:D
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16 years 1 month ago #21824
by WARBIRDF4
I Wrote A Long Proceedure 3 Times And It Didn't Go Through, Have You Got This Going Or Should I Try Again I Have Done This Same Thing So I Could Help You If Need Be.
Mark
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16 years 1 month ago #21892
by D4Doug
If you resolve the issue of the engine being stuck, and hopefully it's free, then pull starting is not hard. I have pull started CAT 12 70D's and 71D's. All you should have to do is make sure that the pony motor is not engaged and then pull the grader and let the clutch out in 3nd gear/high range until you have fuel pressure, then engage the compression to the run setting, and finally -open the throttle. It should then take off. Those old 318's seem to wake up from a few years rest quite nicely. Good luck.
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16 years 1 month ago #21935
by dads_cats
Thanks everyone for your replies. We are getting closer to waking this one up and the weather brought a warm day here today so after a few hours of tug, nudge, push and pull we managed to move the grader out of the field and in close to the shop to work on it there. We used a bar on the fly wheel one more time and I was quite surprised when the engine began to free up considerably more on the first attempt. The socket tool on the crankshaft nut worked well for turning it thru the free space where it was not stuck and then we used the bar again on the tight ends. Using the socket tool on the crank pulley in the places where it stuck on the tight ends was beginning to turn crankshaft nut itself. We did not remove the injectors after it loosened up so quickly. I understand we should be okay leaving them in? Once it is turning thru 6 full revolutions is it still best to remove the valve covers and check out the valves or will we be okay there?
A glass sediment bowl and belt for the starting motor governor is on the way so I think we will be trying the pony motor first.
WARBIRDF4 - Mark, The motor seems to be loosening up but we have not arrived at the point of trying to start it or the pony motor yet. I'm all ears.
As for the posting problem maybe the site timed out before you finished typing? when that happens to me I compose the message in wordpad first or copy it before posting.
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16 years 1 month ago #21942
by Old Magnet
As far as doing the work it depends on how much risk you want to take. For an engine that has sat to the point it is/was stuck means the rings/cylinders are dry and rusted and need lubrication....only access being through the injectors.
Rings do not make good honing devices so they will need all the help they can get.
For me I would want to see and feel the valve action.....slow roll over is a good sign but does not assure free movement at engine operating rpm.
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16 years 3 weeks ago #22277
by dads_cats
Thank you, no desire to cause damage.
I'm into the starter motor carburetor now.
The round tag ID is stamped 5F3525 10364C.
The screws holding the throttle plates to the shafts are soldered and the shafts are worn. I've viewed an image of the kit #K2067 for this carburetor and read about the similar John Deere RE528699 kit. Being cheaper I would think the John Deere kit must come with less items. Are brass bushings the method used to repair the worn shafts? If so would either kit have bushings for the shafts?
I found a
parts manual for the 64C model 14, but no
service manual as of yet that specifies the 64C. Will other service manuals cover the 64C?
The ideal book I am looking for is called...
"Revive your 64C - for Dummies"
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16 years 3 weeks ago #22283
by Old Magnet
Can't tell you what's in the kits but it is normal to have the screws on the butterfly locked with solder. I would suspect bushings are extra unless the kit specifies. The two bushings are a part #9B4779 and a #9B4783 if Cat still has them.
I looked into a service manual for the early #14 and could not find one. Looks like it's either the #12 or later #14 with D333 engine. The late #12 Service Manual would be the closest but probably doesn't cover the oil clutch or turbo.
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16 years 3 weeks ago #22306
by OzDozer
The 64C series Cat 14B is quite a rare machine, with a very short production run, and only 81 built, according to my info.
It was effectively a "transition" model until the D333 became available. There would not have been a Service Manual produced for it.
You would use the later 35F series 14C Service Manual, for the chassis .. in conjunction with the D318 engine Service Manual, or Servicemans Reference Book, as it is correctly termed, for the engine.
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14 Grader 64C418
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