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6 to 8 volt electric start pony problem.

6 to 8 volt electric start pony problem.

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Dozerman51
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Hello All,
Decided I wanted a little more torque when spinning the pony so I bought an 8 volt group 1 battery when the Cat 6 volt group 1 I had on the 3J took a poop after about 4 years. Just to see what would happen, I fired up the pony no problem and much faster I might add, but then I noticed my Amp gauge needle was discharging when I sped up the main and flickering between -5 amps and O on idle. When I removed the 8 volt and installed a 6 volt battery and tried it, all was ok. The needle stayed on the positive side of the gauge and after a few minutes running kicked down to almost 0 on the gauge. Will adjusting the Voltage Regulator Unit of the Regulator up to 8 volts solve the problem or do I have to adjust the Cut-out and Current regulator also. Thanks for any tips and Advice. PS. The 8 volt Battery had both the negative and positive poles on the same side of the battery not on the opposite (diagonal) corners like the 6 volt battery. Don't think that makes any difference though.
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 6:20 AM
neil
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Rule of thumb I've used is one more volt to charge per 6v, so a 6v battery charges nicely at 7v, a 12 at 14, 24 at 28. I've observed my car's voltmeter sitting on 14v and Dad's planes/choppers on 28v. Can you measure the voltage when it's charging the 6v and see what you're getting, prior to any adjustments.
I don't know if you can adjust your voltage up to 9-10 on that generator so the 8v battery will charge but other folks on here have plenty of knowledge on the subject and will be able to let you know.
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 6:28 AM
rturn3060
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Reply to neil:
Rule of thumb I've used is one more volt to charge per 6v, so a 6v battery charges nicely at 7v, a 12 at 14, 24 at 28. I've observed my car's voltmeter sitting on 14v and Dad's planes/choppers on 28v. Can you measure the voltage when it's charging the 6v and see what you're getting, prior to any adjustments.
I don't know if you can adjust your voltage up to 9-10 on that generator so the 8v battery will charge but other folks on here have plenty of knowledge on the subject and will be able to let you know.
It was common to install an 8 volt battery in Oldsmobile and Cadillac's from 49 to 53 to help turn over the newer big engines. There didn't seem to be any problems doing this.
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 7:37 AM
7upuller
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Reply to rturn3060:
It was common to install an 8 volt battery in Oldsmobile and Cadillac's from 49 to 53 to help turn over the newer big engines. There didn't seem to be any problems doing this.
Hey Team,

I run 8 volt batteries in all my 6 volt setups. I never adjust any settings. Don't know why it is showing a discharge when on 8 volt? Try switching wires on gauge.
Glen
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 7:40 AM
Dozerman51
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Reply to 7upuller:
Hey Team,

I run 8 volt batteries in all my 6 volt setups. I never adjust any settings. Don't know why it is showing a discharge when on 8 volt? Try switching wires on gauge.
Glen
Thanks guys for the advice. Glen, That's what my Brother said to do also. Thing is, I can't figure out why that would make a difference. The electrical system is set up as a - ground one. The gauge I have is a nice old AC Delco part# 857841 that has the nice thin Arrowhead pointer on it. I purchased it NOS many years ago and I have never had a problem with it. Next month when I'm back up there, I'll switch the wires and see if that does the trick. What's the worse that can happen? I guess I can only fry up the wires, gen, gauge and regulator. I've got spares if that's the case.:jaw:. Thanks again for all your help.
J. Giraud
40 Cat D2/3J#4103
41' Dodge WC-12 Military 4x4 Pick-up
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 8:10 AM
ccjersey
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I think you are probably correct that you need to adjust the regulator.

It sounds as if the cutout relay is closing as the rpms rise and immediately setting up a drain on the battery with the parasitic internal load of the generator field. You might get good performance by simply raising the cutout voltage to at least 9 volts so that the engine rpms must rise higher before the relay closes.

I have seen internal voltage over twice rated voltage on a 24 volt generator, so I think the voltage capability is likely there, just need to adjust the regulator.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 9:52 AM
ronm
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Reply to ccjersey:
I think you are probably correct that you need to adjust the regulator.

It sounds as if the cutout relay is closing as the rpms rise and immediately setting up a drain on the battery with the parasitic internal load of the generator field. You might get good performance by simply raising the cutout voltage to at least 9 volts so that the engine rpms must rise higher before the relay closes.

I have seen internal voltage over twice rated voltage on a 24 volt generator, so I think the voltage capability is likely there, just need to adjust the regulator.
Your regulator is probably set to about 8V, which is right for a 6V battery. It "thinks" it's dealing with an overcharge-needs to be set up to about 9-9.5V to keep the 8V batt. fully charged.
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 10:43 AM
cojhl2
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Reply to Dozerman51:
Thanks guys for the advice. Glen, That's what my Brother said to do also. Thing is, I can't figure out why that would make a difference. The electrical system is set up as a - ground one. The gauge I have is a nice old AC Delco part# 857841 that has the nice thin Arrowhead pointer on it. I purchased it NOS many years ago and I have never had a problem with it. Next month when I'm back up there, I'll switch the wires and see if that does the trick. What's the worse that can happen? I guess I can only fry up the wires, gen, gauge and regulator. I've got spares if that's the case.:jaw:. Thanks again for all your help.
J. Giraud
40 Cat D2/3J#4103
41' Dodge WC-12 Military 4x4 Pick-up
[quote="Dozerman51"]Thanks guys for the advice. Glen, That's what my Brother said to do also. Thing is, I can't figure out why that would make a difference. The electrical system is set up as a - ground one. The gauge I have is a nice old AC Delco part# 857841 that has the nice thin Arrowhead pointer on it. I purchased it NOS many years ago and I have never had a problem with it. Next month when I'm back up there, I'll switch the wires and see if that does the trick. What's the worse that can happen? I guess I can only fry up the wires, gen, gauge and regulator. I've got spares if that's the case.:jaw:. Thanks again for all your help.
J. Giraud
40 Cat D2/3J#4103
41' Dodge WC-12 Military 4x4 Pick-up[/quote]

Dont switch the wires! The ammeter will read what you think is correct but the results will be the same, amps are running from the bat to the gen.
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 10:51 AM
ronm
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Reply to cojhl2:
[quote="Dozerman51"]Thanks guys for the advice. Glen, That's what my Brother said to do also. Thing is, I can't figure out why that would make a difference. The electrical system is set up as a - ground one. The gauge I have is a nice old AC Delco part# 857841 that has the nice thin Arrowhead pointer on it. I purchased it NOS many years ago and I have never had a problem with it. Next month when I'm back up there, I'll switch the wires and see if that does the trick. What's the worse that can happen? I guess I can only fry up the wires, gen, gauge and regulator. I've got spares if that's the case.:jaw:. Thanks again for all your help.
J. Giraud
40 Cat D2/3J#4103
41' Dodge WC-12 Military 4x4 Pick-up[/quote]

Dont switch the wires! The ammeter will read what you think is correct but the results will be the same, amps are running from the bat to the gen.
You didn't switch polarity from what the 6v was, did you?
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 11:14 AM
Dozerman51
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Reply to cojhl2:
[quote="Dozerman51"]Thanks guys for the advice. Glen, That's what my Brother said to do also. Thing is, I can't figure out why that would make a difference. The electrical system is set up as a - ground one. The gauge I have is a nice old AC Delco part# 857841 that has the nice thin Arrowhead pointer on it. I purchased it NOS many years ago and I have never had a problem with it. Next month when I'm back up there, I'll switch the wires and see if that does the trick. What's the worse that can happen? I guess I can only fry up the wires, gen, gauge and regulator. I've got spares if that's the case.:jaw:. Thanks again for all your help.
J. Giraud
40 Cat D2/3J#4103
41' Dodge WC-12 Military 4x4 Pick-up[/quote]

Dont switch the wires! The ammeter will read what you think is correct but the results will be the same, amps are running from the bat to the gen.
Thanks again for more advice. Will have to research this problem further.:confused2:
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 11:18 AM
edb
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Reply to Dozerman51:
Thanks again for more advice. Will have to research this problem further.:confused2:
Hi Team,
just Googled and found this reply to 8v battery conversion on a VW site.
[i]
Hi all.

Another person came by and asked me what they could do to make their old 6-volter VW more drivable without going to 12 volts.
I have sent this out before, but I'll post it again. It is not the most orthodox solution, but has worked many times and is the most simple one I found. I learned this trick from an old-time VW mechanic, one that I started my mechanic career under. It is extremely simple. All thanks to TJ!

Step one: replace the battery. I went to a local battery supply company and purchased an 8-volt battery (4 cells on top), which is most commonly used in farm equipment. It was the same size as my 6-volt battery. Availability depends on where you are, so I can't say how common they might be to find.

Step two: remove the cover on the voltage regulator. If it is good, it should be charging at about 7.2 volts, which is not enough for your new battery. If you watch the regulator operate with the car running and the cover off, you will see that there is a relay arm that clicks on and off to limit charging. Make sure that you know which one is doing this - I don't have pics any more. What you will want to do is (with the car OFF) bend the upper contact arm up a little so that it takes a higher voltage to actuate the relay. This in effect changes the output voltage. You will want to repeat this in small steps, checking the out put with the car running each time until you achieve an output voltage of 9.6 - perfect for your new battery.

Comments: This increase in voltage is enough to overcome the resistance that has built up in the wiring over the years, but is not enough to damage your components. The horn will beep loud again, the lights will be bright again, the wipers will work nicely, the starter will spin faster, and the radio will still work fine. It does have an additional bonus: you can actually jump start it from a 12 volt car with no ill effects, as long as you just jump it and don't try to charge it. It is also easily reversible with a new regulator and your old battery....

I have done this in more than one old VW, and always with the best of results. It is as close to the combination of pure stock and good functionality as you can get without replacing all the wiring, lamp sockets and electrical components.

Let me know if you try this, and what you think. I'll bet you love it as much as I did!

[/i]
Hope it helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
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Mon, Feb 29, 2016 11:54 AM
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