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Grader ID, pony pinion engagement (stuck lever)

Grader ID, pony pinion engagement (stuck lever)

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sask3500
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Good morning gentlemen, Justin here from Shaunavon, Saskatchewan. We just bought an old Cat grader, neglected, but at least pull started once a year to grade farm access roads. We have three separate questions:

#1 Frame and motor numbers are 3U4549, what do we have? The big patent number plate on the front is painted over and has some brake fluid working on the paint right now. It was sold by Kramer Tractor in Regina, Saskatchewan.

#2 Got the pony running, starts real quick, sounds nice but it pressurizes the crankcase. Any tips on where to start checking? Tricks to free up a ring if that's the case? Can we run it like this for the short term or fix it right away?

#3 Facing the right side of the grader, looking at the pony motor levers. The longer, more vertical one is the clutch, correct? Shoved hard right (front of grader) is clutch brake, left (rear of grader) to engage clutch. If so that makes the stubby horizontal one the pinion lever. That one is stuck. Hard. Pointed to the rear of the grader. What should we do?

As a side note, this seems to be a well run forum. Thank you all. We have had this grader in our shop for only a few hours but it is already "not for sale". It is actually refreshing to have it in. We run a truck repair shop and something like this is a nice break from big trucks with autoshift transmissions, emissions systems, trouble codes, funky sensors and miles of wires!! And it's pretty cute looking pulled in beside the gigantic tandem steer tri-drive Western Star crane truck in for a new clutch!
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Sun, Oct 4, 2015 10:46 PM
Old Magnet
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Hi and welcome.
You have a late 1953 #112 grader with D315 engine.
Yes you can run it with crankcase pressurized but keep an eye on oil level as these engines do not have a conventional rear seal, just a slinger and reverse corkscrew thread. They will pump oil into the transmission if not vented.
Stuck rings are iffy, some free up some don't. Unless it is minor sticking they usually don't.
On the starter clutch lever, handle towards governor is clutch, away is brake.
If you look on the transmission/flywheel housing there is a small two screw/bolt cover that gives some access to the pinion engagement mechanism. If you can get a pry bar behind the sleeve, between the engagement lever it is possible to pop a stuck mechanism loose. At least in theory as it near impossible to get to on the grader.
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Sun, Oct 4, 2015 11:52 PM
sask3500
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Hi and welcome.
You have a late 1953 #112 grader with D315 engine.
Yes you can run it with crankcase pressurized but keep an eye on oil level as these engines do not have a conventional rear seal, just a slinger and reverse corkscrew thread. They will pump oil into the transmission if not vented.
Stuck rings are iffy, some free up some don't. Unless it is minor sticking they usually don't.
On the starter clutch lever, handle towards governor is clutch, away is brake.
If you look on the transmission/flywheel housing there is a small two screw/bolt cover that gives some access to the pinion engagement mechanism. If you can get a pry bar behind the sleeve, between the engagement lever it is possible to pop a stuck mechanism loose. At least in theory as it near impossible to get to on the grader.
Thanks for the identification Old Magnet!

So I have the lever identification correct then? Long vertical one is clutch, short horizontal is pinion engagement? Just want to be sure...
And the pressurized crankcase is on the pony motor. Not sure that it could pump oil into the transmission but I will check. Not that I doubt you, just trying to get a mental picture of how it's all connected internally. An exploded diagram of that area would go a long ways right now...

If the pinion lever is stuck tight in the horizontal position is it okay to apply modest pressure on it with a snipe(pipe) or is that a bad idea? Is the access cover between the engine bay and the cab of the grader at about 2 o'clock (right hand side of the grader)? Sorry for all the repeated questions. I'm not at the shop right now so I'm trying to get it all straight in my head beforehand.

Justin
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Mon, Oct 5, 2015 12:15 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to sask3500:
Thanks for the identification Old Magnet!

So I have the lever identification correct then? Long vertical one is clutch, short horizontal is pinion engagement? Just want to be sure...
And the pressurized crankcase is on the pony motor. Not sure that it could pump oil into the transmission but I will check. Not that I doubt you, just trying to get a mental picture of how it's all connected internally. An exploded diagram of that area would go a long ways right now...

If the pinion lever is stuck tight in the horizontal position is it okay to apply modest pressure on it with a snipe(pipe) or is that a bad idea? Is the access cover between the engine bay and the cab of the grader at about 2 o'clock (right hand side of the grader)? Sorry for all the repeated questions. I'm not at the shop right now so I'm trying to get it all straight in my head beforehand.

Justin
Yes, you have the lever orientation correct.
Go easy on the levers, they have been known to break.
OK, not as critical having the pony motor crankcase pressurized but still can affect oil retention in the pony.
Yes, seems you have located the small cover access point.
Sorry I don't have a good diagram of the area.
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Mon, Oct 5, 2015 1:06 AM
sask3500
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Yes, you have the lever orientation correct.
Go easy on the levers, they have been known to break.
OK, not as critical having the pony motor crankcase pressurized but still can affect oil retention in the pony.
Yes, seems you have located the small cover access point.
Sorry I don't have a good diagram of the area.
I wasn't going to head to the shop today, but this old grader kept bugging me. Took the inspection cover off, I can see a curved arm with a round pad on it travel about 1/2" when I lift up on the pinion lever and can feel the rod that connects the two. When the pad contacts something inside that housing it stops. I assume it is meant to push a pinion gear rearward on the grader and mesh with the diesel flywheel. If I'm wrong please correct me.

Can I blindly spray WD-40 into this housing hoping it will free up a mechanism or should I put in the time to disassemble? I'm really hesitant to split the grader. Any suggestions would be welcome, as would links to any service manuals, parts diagrams, operators manuals, etc.

And here's some pictures too!![attachment=31482]FullSizeRender (5).jpg[/attachment][attachment=31481]FullSizeRender (4).jpg[/attachment][attachment=31480]FullSizeRender (3).jpg[/attachment][ATTACH=CONFIG]54491
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Mon, Oct 5, 2015 1:53 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Yes, you have the lever orientation correct.
Go easy on the levers, they have been known to break.
OK, not as critical having the pony motor crankcase pressurized but still can affect oil retention in the pony.
Yes, seems you have located the small cover access point.
Sorry I don't have a good diagram of the area.
More on the pinion engagement.
Here as a pic of what your dealing with.
If there is no free play at all in the pinion engagement lever (handle) then the engagement lever is stuck. Try prying in back of the lever in the main clutch housing. If you can't get it loose it means pulling the engine for access.
If there is free play the pinion itself is stuck on the splined shaft. Try prying either between the lever and button or the engagement lever (internal) itself.
If you can't get that free the entire pony engagement clutch and pinion assembly can be removed for repairs.
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Mon, Oct 5, 2015 1:59 AM
sask3500
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Reply to sask3500:
I wasn't going to head to the shop today, but this old grader kept bugging me. Took the inspection cover off, I can see a curved arm with a round pad on it travel about 1/2" when I lift up on the pinion lever and can feel the rod that connects the two. When the pad contacts something inside that housing it stops. I assume it is meant to push a pinion gear rearward on the grader and mesh with the diesel flywheel. If I'm wrong please correct me.

Can I blindly spray WD-40 into this housing hoping it will free up a mechanism or should I put in the time to disassemble? I'm really hesitant to split the grader. Any suggestions would be welcome, as would links to any service manuals, parts diagrams, operators manuals, etc.

And here's some pictures too!![attachment=31482]FullSizeRender (5).jpg[/attachment][attachment=31481]FullSizeRender (4).jpg[/attachment][attachment=31480]FullSizeRender (3).jpg[/attachment][ATTACH=CONFIG]54491
Attachment
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Also, can I pry where the pad contacts? Seems it would get rid of the risk of breaking the lever arm, connecting rod or internal curved arm. Thanks in advance for your experience and patience!
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Mon, Oct 5, 2015 2:07 AM
dpendzic
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Reply to Old Magnet:
More on the pinion engagement.
Here as a pic of what your dealing with.
If there is no free play at all in the pinion engagement lever (handle) then the engagement lever is stuck. Try prying in back of the lever in the main clutch housing. If you can't get it loose it means pulling the engine for access.
If there is free play the pinion itself is stuck on the splined shaft. Try prying either between the lever and button or the engagement lever (internal) itself.
If you can't get that free the entire pony engagement clutch and pinion assembly can be removed for repairs.
Instead of wd-40 try spraying the pinion mechanism with a penetrating solvent--like kroil oil, liquid wrench, crc, pb blaster,etc---works much better
if you can get a long rod thru the inspection hole and get it on the pinion button then tap it to see if you can get it to move
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Mon, Oct 5, 2015 2:19 AM
sask3500
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Reply to sask3500:
Also, can I pry where the pad contacts? Seems it would get rid of the risk of breaking the lever arm, connecting rod or internal curved arm. Thanks in advance for your experience and patience!
Scratch that last reply. Thanks for the picture!!! That is close to what I was imagining but that picture was literally worth a thousand words. Is the pinion spring return? (not the flyweight) Or rather if I can pry it toward the diesel flywheel till it engages, will it stick there? I am hoping to move it (pinion mechanism) back and forth and be sure it travels freely. If the pinion can't be freed up with certainty I don't want to risk damaging the grader to the point it can't be pull started to be used.
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Mon, Oct 5, 2015 2:21 AM
sask3500
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Reply to sask3500:
Scratch that last reply. Thanks for the picture!!! That is close to what I was imagining but that picture was literally worth a thousand words. Is the pinion spring return? (not the flyweight) Or rather if I can pry it toward the diesel flywheel till it engages, will it stick there? I am hoping to move it (pinion mechanism) back and forth and be sure it travels freely. If the pinion can't be freed up with certainty I don't want to risk damaging the grader to the point it can't be pull started to be used.
Judging from the picture it will take a lot of luck for a penetrant to get to the internal splines I *assume* the pinion gear rides on or will it get in past the little flyweight springs?
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Mon, Oct 5, 2015 2:24 AM
dpendzic
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Reply to sask3500:
Scratch that last reply. Thanks for the picture!!! That is close to what I was imagining but that picture was literally worth a thousand words. Is the pinion spring return? (not the flyweight) Or rather if I can pry it toward the diesel flywheel till it engages, will it stick there? I am hoping to move it (pinion mechanism) back and forth and be sure it travels freely. If the pinion can't be freed up with certainty I don't want to risk damaging the grader to the point it can't be pull started to be used.
the pinion assembly has latches so it stays engaged until the diesel flywheel spins and then releases by centrifugal force
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Mon, Oct 5, 2015 2:24 AM
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