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Hard Starting Power Wagon

Hard Starting Power Wagon

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Oil Slick
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My PW has a '93 Dodge Cummins in it. The rotary style injection pump has been rebuilt and it has a electric fuel pump. It has a big bus battery with 2 ga. battery cables so it turns the engine over quickly. Just changed the fuel filter I case there's water in it.

Anyways, the Cummins fires right up cold start. All I have to do is bump the starter and it's running. If I shut it off and try to fire it up 15 minutes later it doesn't want to fire. I have to crank and crank t several times to get it to fire. Once it's running it runs great though. The electric fuel pump keeps about 8 psi so it keeps the injection pump charged.

Any suggestions as to why it doesn't want to fire when it's hot?
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Sun, Jun 21, 2015 6:52 AM
rmyram
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sounds like the shut off solenoid is starting to fail. lots of those rotary pump dodge cummins had issues with the solenoids. usually they stay runing after shutting shutting the ignition off.

have you checked the voltage at the fuel shut off solenoid when cranking. maybe the connection is bad and when the starter is engaged the wire that feeds the solenoid is experiencing a bad connection, but as soon as the starter disengages the voltage in the system comes up enough that the solenoid works correctly.

one way to test would be to put a jumper between the shut off solenoid and the positive batery post and then crank the engine to see if that is what is causing it.
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Sun, Jun 21, 2015 9:57 AM
ksbowhunter
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Reply to rmyram:
sounds like the shut off solenoid is starting to fail. lots of those rotary pump dodge cummins had issues with the solenoids. usually they stay runing after shutting shutting the ignition off.

have you checked the voltage at the fuel shut off solenoid when cranking. maybe the connection is bad and when the starter is engaged the wire that feeds the solenoid is experiencing a bad connection, but as soon as the starter disengages the voltage in the system comes up enough that the solenoid works correctly.

one way to test would be to put a jumper between the shut off solenoid and the positive batery post and then crank the engine to see if that is what is causing it.
I am not sure on the older ones but the 2nd gens were bad about that if the rubber return line is old would allow air in the system. I had this happen on mine and a few others that I have worked on.
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Sun, Jun 21, 2015 10:15 AM
ronm
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Reply to ksbowhunter:
I am not sure on the older ones but the 2nd gens were bad about that if the rubber return line is old would allow air in the system. I had this happen on mine and a few others that I have worked on.
Pretty much any rotary pump will be hard starting hot when the head & rotor get worn. The old dirty trick was to pour water on the pump, that will shrink the head & take up the clearance enough to make it pump hot fuel. It's best to wait a minute after pouring the water, the head - rotor clearance is millionth of an inch, and if the head shrinks too much faster than the rotor, it can seize...if the water trick makes it start, it's most likely worn-out. ..
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Sun, Jun 21, 2015 11:27 AM
Deas Plant.
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Reply to ronm:
Pretty much any rotary pump will be hard starting hot when the head & rotor get worn. The old dirty trick was to pour water on the pump, that will shrink the head & take up the clearance enough to make it pump hot fuel. It's best to wait a minute after pouring the water, the head - rotor clearance is millionth of an inch, and if the head shrinks too much faster than the rotor, it can seize...if the water trick makes it start, it's most likely worn-out. ..
Hi, Oil Slick.
Shoulda putta Cat in it while you were spending so much time and effort making it into a NON Dodge Power Wagon. LOL.

Hope yer find a solution.

Just my 0.02.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Sun, Jun 21, 2015 12:13 PM
Oil Slick
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Reply to Deas Plant.:
Hi, Oil Slick.
Shoulda putta Cat in it while you were spending so much time and effort making it into a NON Dodge Power Wagon. LOL.

Hope yer find a solution.

Just my 0.02.
Thank you guys. A few have mentioned the worn pump but hoping that wasnt the problem since it's such a bear to get off. I'll try the water trick and report back to you all.
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Sun, Jun 21, 2015 11:52 PM
cab
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Reply to Oil Slick:
Thank you guys. A few have mentioned the worn pump but hoping that wasnt the problem since it's such a bear to get off. I'll try the water trick and report back to you all.
Oil Slick-
If it runs perfect once started, with good power and no smoke, could be that pump is ok. How much cranking are we doing when hot before it starts?

Would be slick to have a fuel pressure gauge in cab, especially if you run more fuel than stock.

And get rid of that FSS and run a "pull to kill" cable from the mechanical cutoff lever back into cab. Would look good with all your toggle switches and is a very nice antitheft device!

Hoping for bad connection/dirty ground! Good luck.
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Mon, Jun 22, 2015 6:48 AM
Oil Slick
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Reply to cab:
Oil Slick-
If it runs perfect once started, with good power and no smoke, could be that pump is ok. How much cranking are we doing when hot before it starts?

Would be slick to have a fuel pressure gauge in cab, especially if you run more fuel than stock.

And get rid of that FSS and run a "pull to kill" cable from the mechanical cutoff lever back into cab. Would look good with all your toggle switches and is a very nice antitheft device!

Hoping for bad connection/dirty ground! Good luck.
Cab, yes there is a in the cab fuel pressure gauge that reads after the electric fuel pump and before the fuel filter housing. It usually reads around 6-9 psi. A pull kill cable would be nice but the electric magnet fuel shut off seems to be working good without any troubles. I'm going to check all the connections and make sure it's getting good voltage. I wouldn't think thats the problem since it fires right up cold.

Usually after about 3-4 cranking sessions of 10 seconds of cranking per session it will fire up.

Took the PW out of town this weekend. Running about 70 mph at 1,750 rpm it got 13 mpg. This included letting it idle every time we stopped. If I'm not going to stop long enough for it to cool down I just let it run.

Would the injection pump need to come off to replace the worn rotor inside it?
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Mon, Jun 22, 2015 10:57 AM
cab
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Reply to Oil Slick:
Cab, yes there is a in the cab fuel pressure gauge that reads after the electric fuel pump and before the fuel filter housing. It usually reads around 6-9 psi. A pull kill cable would be nice but the electric magnet fuel shut off seems to be working good without any troubles. I'm going to check all the connections and make sure it's getting good voltage. I wouldn't think thats the problem since it fires right up cold.

Usually after about 3-4 cranking sessions of 10 seconds of cranking per session it will fire up.

Took the PW out of town this weekend. Running about 70 mph at 1,750 rpm it got 13 mpg. This included letting it idle every time we stopped. If I'm not going to stop long enough for it to cool down I just let it run.

Would the injection pump need to come off to replace the worn rotor inside it?
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Yes I am afraid the VE pump must come off for service.

But if you had an electrical glitch that only occurred when things were warm, am thinking fusible link, it could cause this issue. The solenoid has a spring loaded plunger with a rubber tip that shuts fuel off when NOT energized with 12VDC.

Think the jumper wire to FSS idea when hot and won't start is your first play. Like the other fella said.
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Mon, Jun 22, 2015 12:01 PM
ronm
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Reply to cab:
Yes I am afraid the VE pump must come off for service.

But if you had an electrical glitch that only occurred when things were warm, am thinking fusible link, it could cause this issue. The solenoid has a spring loaded plunger with a rubber tip that shuts fuel off when NOT energized with 12VDC.

Think the jumper wire to FSS idea when hot and won't start is your first play. Like the other fella said.
The head & rotor assembly on those is a matched set, you have to buy both pieces when it's worn. I'm not as familiar w/the Cummins application, but IH used the same type pump, & they were kind of a throwaway...I fought one on a 510 loader for quite a while, & finally convinced the owner it was scrap, put on a new pump & problem solved...
Not being that much of a Cummins guy, I wonder if you could convert to the inline pump? May not even be doable, but the inline Bosch is a way better pump, it could push an even thicker cloud of tar out that stack with no strain...😖mile:
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Mon, Jun 22, 2015 8:00 PM
ksbowhunter
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Reply to ronm:
The head & rotor assembly on those is a matched set, you have to buy both pieces when it's worn. I'm not as familiar w/the Cummins application, but IH used the same type pump, & they were kind of a throwaway...I fought one on a 510 loader for quite a while, & finally convinced the owner it was scrap, put on a new pump & problem solved...
Not being that much of a Cummins guy, I wonder if you could convert to the inline pump? May not even be doable, but the inline Bosch is a way better pump, it could push an even thicker cloud of tar out that stack with no strain...😖mile:
[quote="ronm"]The head & rotor assembly on those is a matched set, you have to buy both pieces when it's worn. I'm not as familiar w/the Cummins application, but IH used the same type pump, & they were kind of a throwaway...I fought one on a 510 loader for quite a while, & finally convinced the owner it was scrap, put on a new pump & problem solved...
Not being that much of a Cummins guy, I wonder if you could convert to the inline pump? May not even be doable, but the inline Bosch is a way better pump, it could push an even thicker cloud of tar out that stack with no strain...😖mile:[/quote]


Yes it can be converted would need the lines and a few other parts from a 2nd gen to do the conversion. Many people have done it.
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Tue, Jun 23, 2015 1:51 AM
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