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D7 47A getting air

D7 47A getting air

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cab
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I have been running my machine a good bit lately and have had 3 or 4 incidents where it was hard to start, and required bleeding the injector lines at the injector end while spinning on decompression to push air out. These incidents have not been in a row, that is in between there were times when it fired right up. I think I have noticed a correlation that it tends to happen when the fuel tank is at half full or less.

I usually spin on decompression with no fuel for 5 seconds, then pull governor lever back 1/4 travel, let spin for another 5 seconds, and trip decompression lever. Last time I tripped decompression lever immediately after applying fuel and it didn't help.

My number one pump is brand new but the number one line has air when I encounter a hard start. So I don't think the pump check valves are necessarily the problem. Fuel filter doesn't seem to be draining as when i crack the vent valve fuel comes dripping out pretty quick.

Fuel line between tank and primary filter is old and suspect, but there is an awful lot of fuel downstream from there that should start the engine it seems to me.

Where do I go from here to correct this nuisance?

Once I bleed the 2 or 3 lines easiest to reach it fires right up and the miss clears up within 30 seconds.

Again, 2 out of 3 times she fires right up. Am thinking of keeping tank near full and see if that solves the problem to help with the diagnosis.

I do shut off the fuel valve under tank after shutdown and open it every time before cranking.

And my fuel pressure maxes out the gauge and never varies once running.

Any thoughts are appreciated.
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Thu, Sep 25, 2014 9:32 AM
BillWalter
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Try leaving the tank fuel valve open when parked and see if you can see a fuel leak. I suspect that when you shut off tank valve, some fuel drains or leaks out and air enters your system. Thats what you take care of when you bleed the pumps. Or, pressurize the tank, old piece of inner tube with valve stem and hose clamp, and see if you have a leak. Could be fuel transfer pump leaking into crankcase???
Bill Walter
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Thu, Sep 25, 2014 9:46 AM
cab
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Reply to BillWalter:
Try leaving the tank fuel valve open when parked and see if you can see a fuel leak. I suspect that when you shut off tank valve, some fuel drains or leaks out and air enters your system. Thats what you take care of when you bleed the pumps. Or, pressurize the tank, old piece of inner tube with valve stem and hose clamp, and see if you have a leak. Could be fuel transfer pump leaking into crankcase???
Bill Walter
Thanks Bill.
I will definitely try leaving the valve open.

The transfer pump is the ONE item I didn't dismantle and go through, and since fuel pressure is always at max I assumed it was ok. On the other hand I have not noticed oil level rising on dipstick of main either.

I thought one time I saw a little diesel fuel at bottom of transfer pump where end cap bolts onto pump body with 6 or 8 bolts.

Probably fired this machine up 20 times before this situation showed up. Again, seems related to fuel tank level but that doesn't make sense to me.
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Thu, Sep 25, 2014 10:39 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to cab:
Thanks Bill.
I will definitely try leaving the valve open.

The transfer pump is the ONE item I didn't dismantle and go through, and since fuel pressure is always at max I assumed it was ok. On the other hand I have not noticed oil level rising on dipstick of main either.

I thought one time I saw a little diesel fuel at bottom of transfer pump where end cap bolts onto pump body with 6 or 8 bolts.

Probably fired this machine up 20 times before this situation showed up. Again, seems related to fuel tank level but that doesn't make sense to me.
One way to check is disconnect and cap off all but one fuel injection pump. (3/8" JIC caps). Hook up one of those hand vacuum pumps with the fuel valve turned off at the tank. If it will hold reasonable vacuum the problem is most likely at the injectors. I'd be suspect of those old brass fuel shut off valves, they are not exactly bubble tight.
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Thu, Sep 25, 2014 11:29 AM
cab
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Reply to Old Magnet:
One way to check is disconnect and cap off all but one fuel injection pump. (3/8" JIC caps). Hook up one of those hand vacuum pumps with the fuel valve turned off at the tank. If it will hold reasonable vacuum the problem is most likely at the injectors. I'd be suspect of those old brass fuel shut off valves, they are not exactly bubble tight.
Thanks OM.

All 4 injector nozzles are new.

Both brass valves at bottom of tank sweat a little fuel. I just assumed it was weeping past the packings and not a real big issue. Could this be my problem?
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Thu, Sep 25, 2014 11:47 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to cab:
Thanks OM.

All 4 injector nozzles are new.

Both brass valves at bottom of tank sweat a little fuel. I just assumed it was weeping past the packings and not a real big issue. Could this be my problem?
If they can leak fuel out they can leak air in. I change those old valves out for modern tee handle ball valves.

Even with valve change I'd still do the vacuum test. Capping all the pumps and connecting the vacuum pump to the fuel filter vent line (valve open) will also work as a check.
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Thu, Sep 25, 2014 12:10 PM
ccjersey
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I think you will get more milage out of pressurizing the tank than pulling a vacuum on the fuel system. It's hard to detect a tiny vacuum leak, but relatively simpoe to see a fuel seep.

I would suspect a leak some where high on the tractor, so it's above the fuel level when the engine is shut down. Or could be it's a leak that lets fuel as well as air in.

It's quite possible that you would not have to bleed it if you left the fuel valve on..............but that could lead to other problems since it seems to have a leak somewhere.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Thu, Sep 25, 2014 8:29 PM
cab
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Reply to ccjersey:
I think you will get more milage out of pressurizing the tank than pulling a vacuum on the fuel system. It's hard to detect a tiny vacuum leak, but relatively simpoe to see a fuel seep.

I would suspect a leak some where high on the tractor, so it's above the fuel level when the engine is shut down. Or could be it's a leak that lets fuel as well as air in.

It's quite possible that you would not have to bleed it if you left the fuel valve on..............but that could lead to other problems since it seems to have a leak somewhere.
I investigated closely today and the piece of copper tubing that makes up onto shutoff valve was not real tight. Someone put a short piece of copper tubing onto shutoff valve, then a short piece of hose goes from that to the long line that runs to primary.

I had replaced hose and clamps and made sure that was good a long time ago, but the copper tubing has a rubber compression fitting where it makes up to shutoff instead of a copper ferrule, which I prefer. Maybe that will fix it, if not it needs doing anyway.

Was the original a 1 piece steel line?
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Fri, Sep 26, 2014 5:43 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to cab:
I investigated closely today and the piece of copper tubing that makes up onto shutoff valve was not real tight. Someone put a short piece of copper tubing onto shutoff valve, then a short piece of hose goes from that to the long line that runs to primary.

I had replaced hose and clamps and made sure that was good a long time ago, but the copper tubing has a rubber compression fitting where it makes up to shutoff instead of a copper ferrule, which I prefer. Maybe that will fix it, if not it needs doing anyway.

Was the original a 1 piece steel line?
Original line was steel....3/8" hydraulic hose and some fittings makes a nice replacement unless you are going for show.

Original line had silver soldered ferrules. The rubber seal is a cobble fix.
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Fri, Sep 26, 2014 7:35 AM
Rome K/G
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Original line was steel....3/8" hydraulic hose and some fittings makes a nice replacement unless you are going for show.

Original line had silver soldered ferrules. The rubber seal is a cobble fix.
Put the correct fuel line on. Its drawing air into the system.
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Fri, Sep 26, 2014 8:35 AM
seiscat
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Reply to Rome K/G:
Put the correct fuel line on. Its drawing air into the system.
Hello cab, sorry it took me so long to see your post. The fuel line is the most suspect piece and is also the least expensive to repair. If you are talented with a tubing bender, use steel tubeing. Auto part stores carry lengths of steel "brake line" with double flare ends. I use short pieces and connectors to ease fabrication and installation(cut one end off and add a ferrel to the valve end). DO NOT use plain rubber hose as a fire would burn the hose and feed the fire with the fuel in the tank. Copper tends to crack with vibration.
Give me a call.
Good Luck,
Craig
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Sat, Sep 27, 2014 8:53 PM
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