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12 grader coolant loss into oil pan

12 grader coolant loss into oil pan

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muzz
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Had a little warmer weather today so I went out and got the 1948 8T grader going to get it ready for a snow storm. Let it warm up and then saw the temp gauge near the red line.
Thought the stats might of stuck. Took off the stat housing and no coolant came out. Had it full this fall. Checked the oil dip stick and it is grey and is nice and thick like a milk shake. Drained out the coolant and only got about 4 gallons. Oil level is low and just at the bottom of the stick, but I do have a nice leak by the valve covers. Had good oil pressure on the gauge.

I'm guessing it is a liner seals? Can it be something else?

Looking for help on what to do 1st. Pull injectors and precups and look for leaks there? Pull the head? Pull the pan? Call junk man?

Whatever it is, doesn't look like it will be plowing any snow this year.
Thanks,
Muzz
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Sat, Dec 14, 2013 5:52 AM
ccjersey
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Have been working on the 9U which was the subject of this thread http://www.acmoc.org/bb/showthread.php?17111-D6-9U-running-HOT-and-radiator-cleaning&highlight=radiator

It had some moisture in the crankcase when we were last running it hard in the spring, but when I started it up, the oil stayed black and just running it back to the shop to work on a stripped track tension adjuster, it didn't overheat or have any trouble. Of course I was just idling along trying to keep the track on, not working it much at all. It has been sitting for a week or so since I had to get the screw from Florin in California. Installed the screw and started it up this afternoon and noticed the radiator was about 3 gallons low........sure enough the oil is milky, thin and milky though. There is an external coolant seep on the head gasket area that I think is most of the leakage problem, but the milky oil is new.

So, I put in 3 gallons of antifreeze (it's getting below freezing here now) and a bottle of Dike and let it run a while this afternoon. It is in the shop, so I'll probably put another bottle or two in it and see if it'll take care of the leaks before I replace the head gasket. If it holds, I'll change the oil again.

You might be able to plow snow just fine with a good dose of stop leak if you don't have compression gas building up in the radiator. You can rig up an adapter using an injector hold-down nut to put shop air pressure into each cylinder with the piston at TDC compression stroke and see if any comes into radiator in which case a precombustion chamber is fairly likely to be the problem and you can remove and check the seal without removing the head. The air pressure test will identify which precombustion chambers you should pull out.

If no bubbles into radiator, assume it is liner seals and the stop leak has a good chance of sealing it off.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time๐Ÿ˜„
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Sat, Dec 14, 2013 6:49 AM
Delta Dirt
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Reply to ccjersey:
Have been working on the 9U which was the subject of this thread http://www.acmoc.org/bb/showthread.php?17111-D6-9U-running-HOT-and-radiator-cleaning&highlight=radiator

It had some moisture in the crankcase when we were last running it hard in the spring, but when I started it up, the oil stayed black and just running it back to the shop to work on a stripped track tension adjuster, it didn't overheat or have any trouble. Of course I was just idling along trying to keep the track on, not working it much at all. It has been sitting for a week or so since I had to get the screw from Florin in California. Installed the screw and started it up this afternoon and noticed the radiator was about 3 gallons low........sure enough the oil is milky, thin and milky though. There is an external coolant seep on the head gasket area that I think is most of the leakage problem, but the milky oil is new.

So, I put in 3 gallons of antifreeze (it's getting below freezing here now) and a bottle of Dike and let it run a while this afternoon. It is in the shop, so I'll probably put another bottle or two in it and see if it'll take care of the leaks before I replace the head gasket. If it holds, I'll change the oil again.

You might be able to plow snow just fine with a good dose of stop leak if you don't have compression gas building up in the radiator. You can rig up an adapter using an injector hold-down nut to put shop air pressure into each cylinder with the piston at TDC compression stroke and see if any comes into radiator in which case a precombustion chamber is fairly likely to be the problem and you can remove and check the seal without removing the head. The air pressure test will identify which precombustion chambers you should pull out.

If no bubbles into radiator, assume it is liner seals and the stop leak has a good chance of sealing it off.
Warning for use of "stop leak" if it is leaking past liner seals.

I had a 1370 Case that I "dosed up" with Bar's Stop Leak-------turned out to be leaking past the O rings on the sleeves. Stop leak was very abrasive and circulated throughout engine------had to replace all bearings------turn the crank------replace camshaft and bearings.

Hate to disagree with CC (he is a doctor in addition to being a master mechanic)--------but be careful with stop leak in a wet sleeve engine.

Check it for abraisve qualities before using.

Delta Dirt
Delta Dirt
Avon, Ms 38723

D2 5U and other scrap iron
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Sat, Dec 14, 2013 11:23 AM
Old Magnet
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Reply to Delta Dirt:
Warning for use of "stop leak" if it is leaking past liner seals.

I had a 1370 Case that I "dosed up" with Bar's Stop Leak-------turned out to be leaking past the O rings on the sleeves. Stop leak was very abrasive and circulated throughout engine------had to replace all bearings------turn the crank------replace camshaft and bearings.

Hate to disagree with CC (he is a doctor in addition to being a master mechanic)--------but be careful with stop leak in a wet sleeve engine.

Check it for abraisve qualities before using.

Delta Dirt
Stop Leak products are also known to do a nice job of stopping up oil passages when introduced into the lubrication system.
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Sat, Dec 14, 2013 1:05 PM
rjh-md
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Reply to Old Magnet:
Stop Leak products are also known to do a nice job of stopping up oil passages when introduced into the lubrication system.
Is you water leak inside the valve cover or outside ? IF inside chack to see if the leak is a frost plug in the head inside the valve cover Other possibility a leaking precombustion chamber seal in the bottom of the chamber usually can find a loose chamber by removing the injectors ,and use the splined bolt to see if chambers are tight in the head 200 LBS TORQUE .You may have to reseal all the chambers ,and torque them take a flashlight ,and shine it into the head with the chambers removed ,and see if you can see.any cracks running from the chamber hole out to the valves Next thing would be to pull the head ,and check for crack s,head gasket ,and rubber seals. Another problem cracked liner ,hole etched in liner due to erosion due to acid water in cooling system .I have had this problem on JD engines next thing could be liner seal or counterbore cracks ,,and dropped liner in block .Start with the easy things frist
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Sat, Dec 14, 2013 10:19 PM
ccjersey
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Retorqued the head on the 9U yesterday in an effort to stop a seep out the side of the head gasket. This involves removing the rocker arm shaft, decompression shaft and rocker boxes as an assembly as well as the injector lines. As I mentioned, it has some water in the oil, so I re-dosed the Dike and refilled it last night after reinstalling the rocker boxes etc. It held a gallon of coolant this time.

Plan was to check valve adjustment this morning and start it up to warm the oil before changing it. I had noticed there was a little bit of coolant laying on top of the head, but assumed it had shaken out of the oil "pudding' that was stuck up inside the valve covers. Oil looks surprisingly good, but there was 1/2" of oil pudding stuck in there which when disturbed weeps out liquid coolant. So I left the rocker covers off so I could rinse the rocker arms down after draining the oil. Started the pony motor and began warming the main engine up. Noticed that there was coolant squirting out of one of the rocker arms and assumed again that it was from the pudding and would soon cease as the oil pump moved more oil up into the rockers. I was reconsidering actually running the engine because of the evidence of the oil pump pumping coolant instead of the contaminated oil when I noticed that the stream didn't originate at the rocker arm, it was spraying out of a freeze plug and hitting the rocker arm and being deflected.

So rjh, you were exactly right, well worth the time to take the valve covers off and look in there. ๐Ÿ˜†

Now I get to remove the rocker boxes etc again and pull the freeze plugs as well as probably need to check the pony head gasket on one cylinder since it is getting a small amount of coolant in it and with the pony running the freeze plug leak is actively spurting like there is some pressure getting into the cooling system.

On the whole I am glad the liner seals are not the problem this time!

Freeze plugs are a 1" diameter x 3/8" deep. Dorman part number 555-017. I had called everywhere and they all said they had only a shallow style maybe 1/4" deep. After pulling the old plugs, the thickness of the head was only about 1/4", so I decided to go get some of those instead of waiting on some deeper ones to come in. The O-Reilly guy couldn't find the box they had looked in earlier when I called and in the process of sorting through the shelves, found the deeper ones I needed!
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time๐Ÿ˜„
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Thu, Dec 19, 2013 2:32 AM
ccjersey
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Got it buttoned back up yesterday. Torqueing the head slowed the seep down to a wet place that I think will stop in time. Coolant level is holding overnight at least. I got about 1/8 turn on most of the nuts, but only by loosening first and then retightening to torque spec of 100 pound-foot on the small ones and 150 on the big ones. Not sure when the specs were increased, but I had those written in my SRB.

The pony head gasket was damaged in the fire ring area. Almost looked like it had gotten smashed before installation and used anyway. An arc about 2" long around the cylinder bore (about 6 o-clock to 9 o-clock) was smashed like the piston hit it, but that should be impossible...

Anyway, I found another one in good shape that seems to be working just fine. Oh, the time consuming part of the pony job was digging the crud out of the head and block water jacket! Once I raked all I could out of the block, I took the air hose and put air into the bleed cock on top of the pony and it pushed coolant out of the pony quite nicely. After that, I felt better about running a thin pipe into the block ports and blowing to loosen up more. A couple repeats and the coolant would come out clean. I know there's more in there, but that is going to have to wait for another day when I can lift the pony off and do it right.

Oh, the freeze plugs were very thin even though only one was leaking yet. There are 7.....took a couple trips to town because the ones on each end were covered with dust still.

Started it up and let it warm up and then drained the oil. There is still a little contamination in the new oil, but I think it will be fine to run it and drive that moisture out.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time๐Ÿ˜„
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Sun, Dec 22, 2013 10:00 PM
kracked1
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Reply to ccjersey:
Got it buttoned back up yesterday. Torqueing the head slowed the seep down to a wet place that I think will stop in time. Coolant level is holding overnight at least. I got about 1/8 turn on most of the nuts, but only by loosening first and then retightening to torque spec of 100 pound-foot on the small ones and 150 on the big ones. Not sure when the specs were increased, but I had those written in my SRB.

The pony head gasket was damaged in the fire ring area. Almost looked like it had gotten smashed before installation and used anyway. An arc about 2" long around the cylinder bore (about 6 o-clock to 9 o-clock) was smashed like the piston hit it, but that should be impossible...

Anyway, I found another one in good shape that seems to be working just fine. Oh, the time consuming part of the pony job was digging the crud out of the head and block water jacket! Once I raked all I could out of the block, I took the air hose and put air into the bleed cock on top of the pony and it pushed coolant out of the pony quite nicely. After that, I felt better about running a thin pipe into the block ports and blowing to loosen up more. A couple repeats and the coolant would come out clean. I know there's more in there, but that is going to have to wait for another day when I can lift the pony off and do it right.

Oh, the freeze plugs were very thin even though only one was leaking yet. There are 7.....took a couple trips to town because the ones on each end were covered with dust still.

Started it up and let it warm up and then drained the oil. There is still a little contamination in the new oil, but I think it will be fine to run it and drive that moisture out.
Im glad to hear things went well. Nice feeling to have an easy fix once in awhile.
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Mon, Dec 23, 2013 1:16 AM
muzz
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Reply to kracked1:
Im glad to hear things went well. Nice feeling to have an easy fix once in awhile.
I finally got back to my grader. I pulled the valve covers and rockers arms so I could get a good look at the freeze plugs on top of the head. Could not find any problems with them. Went ahead and removed all the precups to reseal them. Number 5 seamed like it was not torqued as much as the others. I hope that this was the cause of my coolant leaking into the oil pan. I have not put the coolant back in yet so I don't know if it is fixed. I looked at the coolant that I took out a few months ago and it looked like oil or black crap has came out and is floating on the top. So I don't know if that is from combustion gases or from engine oil. I also torqued the head bolts, but they were all fine. I think I will fill it up with coolant and pressurize it and see what happens. If it is still leaking, I guess I will start pulling the head.
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Sun, Mar 9, 2014 10:08 AM
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