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Loosening injector nuts on D3400? Eddie - need your insight please.

Loosening injector nuts on D3400? Eddie - need your insight please.

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neil
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Team, I had the custom injector hold-down nut socket made with the cutout in the side for the pipe nipple. Of the four, I only managed to loosen #1, and I broke the side out of the socket on #2.
Are there any additional tricks to loosening that nut up? I had a two foot cheater on the 3/4 drive socket and I had applied some blows with the 10# hammer to the nut to shock it before attempting loosening. Liberal amounts of WD40 in and around.

Any other things I should do? I wasn't sure about heating that nut because it's an internal thread so expanding wouldn't help (although the subsequent cooling/contraction would) and I wasn't sure if it would cause damage to the injectors.

Turns out I had a water leak in #2 so I'm thinking minimum is to pull that piston / hone if the rust pitting isn't too bad. I also noticed that #3 main bearing (the top half) is a little loose in the block - I know these engines have plenty of clearance but I was wondering if any movement was bad or just a smidge is livable with - what do you say Eddie?

Cheers,
Neil
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Sat, Aug 24, 2013 8:19 AM
dpendzic
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Neil--I don't think much of wd40 as a rust buster--I prefer Kroil oil or PB blaster
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Sat, Aug 24, 2013 8:23 AM
edb
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Reply to dpendzic:
Neil--I don't think much of wd40 as a rust buster--I prefer Kroil oil or PB blaster
Hi Neil,
with a suitable shaped punch and some moderate hammering straight down on the nut has worked for me in the past.
Cannot add much more than some judicious heat and melting candle wax into the threads might help--do not get too carried away with the heat as you said. Allow to cool a bit and retry.
As Dan said, WD40 is a Water Dispersant and not a good penetrating fluid.

Any engine bearing should have crush applied when its cap is tightened to keep the bearing shells in place or else fretting and misalignment from wear occurs, as well, the crank is not being held in true alignment with its loadings equally supported by the next door journals--this can lead to a broken crank due to abnormal flexing of the crank between neighbouring mains--fatigue failures are likely at the radii and/or oil drillings.

Cheers,
Eddie B.
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Sat, Aug 24, 2013 12:31 PM
neil
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Reply to edb:
Hi Neil,
with a suitable shaped punch and some moderate hammering straight down on the nut has worked for me in the past.
Cannot add much more than some judicious heat and melting candle wax into the threads might help--do not get too carried away with the heat as you said. Allow to cool a bit and retry.
As Dan said, WD40 is a Water Dispersant and not a good penetrating fluid.

Any engine bearing should have crush applied when its cap is tightened to keep the bearing shells in place or else fretting and misalignment from wear occurs, as well, the crank is not being held in true alignment with its loadings equally supported by the next door journals--this can lead to a broken crank due to abnormal flexing of the crank between neighbouring mains--fatigue failures are likely at the radii and/or oil drillings.

Cheers,
Eddie B.
Thanks Eddie and Dan, much appreciated. I only used the WD40 because it's all that I had on hand - my aerosol of Kroil ran out of oomph. I'll head back on Monday with my punches and gas set and see if I can convince them to come. If I can't, would you say yea or nay to a 3/4 air rattler (as used on loosening truck lug nuts). My welder is fixing up the custom socket with some extra gusseting so between all these things, I'm fairly confident I'll get it. I can see that #2 leaked water but I'm planning on pulling the head so I'll see if it's a precombustion chamber or the o-rings on the bottom of the liner. I hope it's not a cracked head......
Cheers,
Neil.
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Sat, Aug 24, 2013 8:35 PM
Tim Matthews
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Reply to neil:
Thanks Eddie and Dan, much appreciated. I only used the WD40 because it's all that I had on hand - my aerosol of Kroil ran out of oomph. I'll head back on Monday with my punches and gas set and see if I can convince them to come. If I can't, would you say yea or nay to a 3/4 air rattler (as used on loosening truck lug nuts). My welder is fixing up the custom socket with some extra gusseting so between all these things, I'm fairly confident I'll get it. I can see that #2 leaked water but I'm planning on pulling the head so I'll see if it's a precombustion chamber or the o-rings on the bottom of the liner. I hope it's not a cracked head......
Cheers,
Neil.
Repair or make another socket and use a impact gun on it . If you use loaclized heat use a small gas tip to help keep it concentrated.
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Sat, Aug 24, 2013 10:41 PM
BillWalter
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Reply to Tim Matthews:
Repair or make another socket and use a impact gun on it . If you use loaclized heat use a small gas tip to help keep it concentrated.
Neil;
If you need those injectors rebuilt and tested , give me a call; Bill Walter 816 891 8654
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Sun, Aug 25, 2013 10:20 PM
neil
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Reply to BillWalter:
Neil;
If you need those injectors rebuilt and tested , give me a call; Bill Walter 816 891 8654
Hi Bill,
thanks! When/if I get them out : ), I'll send them over. I have a set in the 5U that I'm sure need looking at too.
Cheers,
Neil
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Mon, Aug 26, 2013 4:57 AM
BillWalter
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Reply to neil:
Hi Bill,
thanks! When/if I get them out : ), I'll send them over. I have a set in the 5U that I'm sure need looking at too.
Cheers,
Neil
Neil; If you wish to E-mail me; [email protected] Bill Walter
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Mon, Aug 26, 2013 10:48 PM
neil
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Reply to BillWalter:
Neil; If you wish to E-mail me; [email protected] Bill Walter
Status:
- D3400: I had thought that #3 was the cylinder that had some kind of rust ring causing it to bind up 45 degrees off BTDC, but after pulling the side covers, I can see evidence of a water leakdown from #2. Hoping of course that it was just rainwater / condensation in through an open valve and not a rotted out precombustion chamber. In any case, I'll pull the head, rattle out the injectors and take a look. I understand this engine just uses a head gasket.

D311: main is stuck so I'm going to pull the head on that too (after I pull the main clutch), and use the "set the diesel alight" technique. I understand this engine uses the head gasket, water directors, and the rubber seals around the water directors.

Bunch of questions for everyone:
- Bill or Eddie: can I remove the inlet pipe from the side of the injector so that I can safely use an impact gun on the retaining nut or does that screw up some setting on the injector? I'm not sure if rattling the retaining nut loose can be controlled enough so that I don't break that inlet pipe off against the head stud
- Eddie: the consensus seems to be to coat the new head gasket with Permatex Super 300 (or #2) - coat both sides of the head gasket or just the side that contacts the block? I'm going to pull the head off the D3400 and off the D311 - for the D311, do I also coat the rubber water seals with the Permatex as well (and both sides of the rubber seals?)
- Eddie: for the one main bearing in the D3400 that is a bit loose in the block, what's your suggestion for "tightening" it up e.g. shim or whatnot, or do I have to replace the bearing? If replace, can I turn the top shell out or do I have to drop the crank?

I'll pick up the flap wheel this week and lay down the bead of grease around the top of the piston to contain the grindings.

For the 5U, I thought I'd use the mapp gas torch on the left "stuck open" steering clutch to see if I can relieve some of the swelling. Even if I do have to pull that final, at least it should be easier with a bit of rust burnt off. I noticed that I can see the ends of the linings so I also thought of tapping on the plates lightly to encourage a bit of movement.
More to come...

Cheers,
Neil.
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Sun, Sep 1, 2013 10:13 PM
ccjersey
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Neil, one thing you can do with the injectors still in is to presssurize the cooling system and see if the drip comes down below #2. If the cooling system holds, then almost certainly you're dealing with rainwater intrusion. Have you taken the exhaust and intake off it yet? Lots of times you can look at the ports and tell a lot. I am of the camp that wants to know where the leak is before the tear down. Would hate to miss something and end up doing the job twice before correcting it.

If you do not confirm a coolant leak, I would be inclined to just pull the #2 piston out the bottom (has to come out that way anyway, or at least the rod does. With that piston out, then rotate the engine and see if anything else binds up. Then feel and inspect the bore with a bright light and mirror. Might even be able to do some honing with a bead hone or even a 3 stone spring loaded hone if you can figure out a drill to drive it. Then reinstall the cleaned up piston with new rings and run it enough to diagnose the condition of the rest of the engine.

I always assumed the inlet nipple on the injectors was brazed into the the body of the injector????? Maybe not.

Coat both sides of the head gasket in all areas other than the fire ring around each cylinder. My understanding is that this procedure was adopted for the long 6 cylinder heads, but I cannot see any reason it would hurt to do it on the others.

Haven't had the head off my 5J yet (that day is coming, it was still stuck the last time I checked), but parts book shows no ferrules and grommets as used on the U series and some later engines. These are not actually water directors, Those are similar brass inserts, but are actually pressed into theport in the head to direct coolant flow toward specific areas. The grommets and ferrules are a non-directional assembly, they simply seal the head to the block with a rubber seal. Not sure why a simple o-ring was not used, but I guess that surfacing a head would change the clamping of an o-ring so much that the o-ring recesses would have to be recut each time. Seems like the grommet recesses are deep enough that, within the limits of "normal" work, surfacing the head does not change the clamping enough to matter.

On the main bearing.......How loose is it? How did you notice it? While it is certainly possible to roll the upper half of the bearing out and roll a new one in, I am wondering whether this would last long if the main bearing cap needs resizing/line boring. Guess it's certainly possible that the bearing is the problem and a new one will correct it. Note that the bearing half in the cap is doweled in place which makes me doubt that one that was loose could be salvaged with any hope of lasting long.

The serviceman's reference book shows a small tool used to insert in the crankshaft oil port and push the bearing shell out by rotating the crankshaft. It is fabricated from 1/4" rod and is fashoned as a bent T with the angle between the top and the leg at a 60* angle. Total height is 2" and total width is 1-1/2". Have also seen a large cotter pin used for the same job. Book also shows using a piece of some sort of flexible material to drive the bearing out with a hammer. Maybe a piece of stiff plastic?

I expect it would be a good plan to plasti-gauge the bearings before deciding whether to attempt replacement of bearings only or whether the crankshaft needs grinding. I believe to plastigauge a main bearing properly, you must jack up the crankshaft so all the clearance is at the bottom where the strip of plastigauge goes.
D2-5J's, D6-9U's, D318 and D333 power units, 12E-99E grader, 922B & 944A wheel loaders, D330C generator set, DW20 water tanker and a bunch of Jersey cows to take care of in my spare time😄
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Mon, Sep 2, 2013 3:15 AM
edb
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Reply to ccjersey:
Neil, one thing you can do with the injectors still in is to presssurize the cooling system and see if the drip comes down below #2. If the cooling system holds, then almost certainly you're dealing with rainwater intrusion. Have you taken the exhaust and intake off it yet? Lots of times you can look at the ports and tell a lot. I am of the camp that wants to know where the leak is before the tear down. Would hate to miss something and end up doing the job twice before correcting it.

If you do not confirm a coolant leak, I would be inclined to just pull the #2 piston out the bottom (has to come out that way anyway, or at least the rod does. With that piston out, then rotate the engine and see if anything else binds up. Then feel and inspect the bore with a bright light and mirror. Might even be able to do some honing with a bead hone or even a 3 stone spring loaded hone if you can figure out a drill to drive it. Then reinstall the cleaned up piston with new rings and run it enough to diagnose the condition of the rest of the engine.

I always assumed the inlet nipple on the injectors was brazed into the the body of the injector????? Maybe not.

Coat both sides of the head gasket in all areas other than the fire ring around each cylinder. My understanding is that this procedure was adopted for the long 6 cylinder heads, but I cannot see any reason it would hurt to do it on the others.

Haven't had the head off my 5J yet (that day is coming, it was still stuck the last time I checked), but parts book shows no ferrules and grommets as used on the U series and some later engines. These are not actually water directors, Those are similar brass inserts, but are actually pressed into theport in the head to direct coolant flow toward specific areas. The grommets and ferrules are a non-directional assembly, they simply seal the head to the block with a rubber seal. Not sure why a simple o-ring was not used, but I guess that surfacing a head would change the clamping of an o-ring so much that the o-ring recesses would have to be recut each time. Seems like the grommet recesses are deep enough that, within the limits of "normal" work, surfacing the head does not change the clamping enough to matter.

On the main bearing.......How loose is it? How did you notice it? While it is certainly possible to roll the upper half of the bearing out and roll a new one in, I am wondering whether this would last long if the main bearing cap needs resizing/line boring. Guess it's certainly possible that the bearing is the problem and a new one will correct it. Note that the bearing half in the cap is doweled in place which makes me doubt that one that was loose could be salvaged with any hope of lasting long.

The serviceman's reference book shows a small tool used to insert in the crankshaft oil port and push the bearing shell out by rotating the crankshaft. It is fabricated from 1/4" rod and is fashoned as a bent T with the angle between the top and the leg at a 60* angle. Total height is 2" and total width is 1-1/2". Have also seen a large cotter pin used for the same job. Book also shows using a piece of some sort of flexible material to drive the bearing out with a hammer. Maybe a piece of stiff plastic?

I expect it would be a good plan to plasti-gauge the bearings before deciding whether to attempt replacement of bearings only or whether the crankshaft needs grinding. I believe to plastigauge a main bearing properly, you must jack up the crankshaft so all the clearance is at the bottom where the strip of plastigauge goes.
Hi Neil,
the injector body pipe is part of the injector body, as CCJ said.
When the injector retaining nut is loosened the injector should come loose from its sealing taper at the bottom of the Pre-comb.
The nut can be turned a bit at a time with the socket being shifted on the hex flats to keep the injector tube in the slot of the socket, and pressure off the tube. This is why the socket has the cutout/slot to clear the tube.

I use the old Permatex No 3--the brown semi-runny goo that you paint on and only cleans off with Metho. (denatured alcohol) If I recall the #2 is a hardening goo and the #3 is semi-hardening.
I would not use the goo on the ferrule rubbers,as some will likely squeeze into the ferrule countebores and over fill them causing the rubbers to extrude out under the gasket and likely cause a leak of both water and combustion gasses.
I have seen plenty of O rings burst by too much oil or grease in their grooves so when the O ring compresses, during fitting, it seals the fluid under itself and thereby leaves no room/volume for the O ring to compress into and so the O ring extrudes out between the sealing faces and distorts or causes cracks to the housing, or what ever, and leaks as a result.

I have no fix for the loose main until at least we see some pix of the worn areas of the bearing/block bore to see if there has been metal transfer from fretting/adhesive wear of the parts.
Then any raised bits will need to be removed to assess the bore etc.
Best fix is likely another main bearing--being carefull to measure the thickness of both halves of both the old and new shell halves, remembering to subtract the wear on the outer surfaces of the the worn/loose shells, to be sure this new bearing is not going to carry more load of the crank than its neighbours--broken crank would be the end result if it is not of a matched thickness to the others next to it.
The best way to get an idea for correct shell thickness would be to measure the neighbouring shells and compare.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
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Mon, Sep 2, 2013 7:17 AM
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